What's wrong with my w2

Ryan Minchew

Ryan Minchew

Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Messages
580
Ive made two knives out of this w2. Both had to be heat treated twice in order to get the blade hard all along the edge. Even though they are stock removal ive done the thermal cycling to refine grain. Ive used two different methods on 8 different coupons. Today I get anything to go past 40 on the Rockwell tester except on piece. I'm quenching in parks 50.
First example I heated to 1550 and let air cool to black and stepped down 50 degrees each time until I was at 1300. I clayed the blade and heat treated setting oven on 1460. I had one spot that was 55 and the rest all tested at 40 or less.
I tried two more coupons with the same results.
Next I did a different procedure and didn't do anything to the steel before heat treating it and it tested at 38.

Next step I did two test coupons taking then to 1650 soak for 20 minutes then stepping down to 1500, 1475, and 1425. Cooling to black each step except quenching at the 1425 step. Same results nothing over 40 on the tester.

Next I started playing with temps. I've gone as high as 1510 and as low as 1440 with hold times of 5-20 minutes at the temps. Nothing changed steel is still soft. I even quenched a couple pieces in water.

Here is a blade tang that was clean and left to soak at 1500 for 10 minutes. It shows some banding which I though was decarb, but after removing .040" it's still there and it's soft. Hopefully this picture shows it. The banding test soft and I get a hardness of 55-57 on the rest of it. The band's between the holes and on the left towards the top is one small dark looking line that is soft. It's like this all through the blade. This handle piece turned into a test coupon once I broke the blade to see what the grain looked like. It seemed to be fine grain.

Edited to add I hardened a piece of 1095 to make sure it wasn't an oven problem and had no issues.
I also just quenched a piece of w2 that was soaking at 1650 and I'm able to cut the coupon. It test at 54.
 
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Aldo. I've read the spheroidized threads so I tried steel without doing anything and some with the thermal cycling. I feel if the 1095 coupon came out hard, I'm not doing anything so wrong as to get such low numbers. If I am doing wrong I've gone backwards and forwards and not sure where to go now lol I've heat treated cpm-154 without any issues as well.
 
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Ryan, you're not alone. Not sure where you got yours, but a few years ago, Aldo received some W2 from Germany that had those exact symptoms. Seems to be a hit or miss thing, the few .140" bars I got from the newer batch harden quite well. But I have heard that there are issues with the some of the W2 (older as well as newer batch).
 
Maybe misidentified steel? It's possible you over refined the steel, making it very difficult to get past the nose quenching, but your other tests should have resulted in hardened steel.

Is this steel relatively new? Aldo had a bad batch of W2 several years ago, but he made that right.
 
samuraistuart said:
Ryan, you're not alone. Not sure where you got yours, but a few years ago, Aldo received some W2 from Germany that had those exact symptoms. Seems to be a hit or miss thing, the few .140" bars I got from the newer batch harden quite well. But I have heard that there are issues with the some of the W2 (older as well as newer batch).
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This is what I was afraid of. I knew about the issues with the older steel. I've seen a few grumblings issues with the new stuff, but no one has come right out to say there was an issue or offered a solution if they ever did find the problem. I've called njsb twice but no answer. I was hoping to post here and someone tell me I was missing one major detail. This bar is .140 and bought in may or June.
 
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Willie71 said:
Maybe misidentified steel? It's possible you over refined the steel, making it very difficult to get past the nose quenching, but your other tests should have resulted in hardened steel.

Is this steel relatively new? Aldo had a bad batch of W2 several years ago, but he made that right.
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The steel was purchased in may of this year. And yeah I've got an equal number of coupons that were not ran through any cycles that should have hardened. The steel is painted orange on the end and has w2 written on the end from Aldo's store. I have pictures were I did a series of test breaking each one after each temp in the cycle and was able to watch the grain refine. I found a couple of those pieces and tested them and they are low as well.
 
Ryan, I am sorry to hear this. What I've heard about the latest batch, the thicker stuff was really giving issues for some folks. I Bought four bars of the .140" right when the latest batch came in, two are used up with basically zero issues. I don't have a Rockwell tester, but the standard 1650f normalizing, followed by 1475 thermal cycles a couple times, then 1425f thermal cycle, then 1375f thermal cycle, aus temp of 1475 for 15 minutes (chef knives), P50 oil warmed to 100f, triple tempers at 400f a brand new fine cut file would still skate even with some decent pressure. I know...not scientific at all, but I'm pretty sure I'm getting 63f after a 400f temper.
 
samuraistuart said:
Ryan, I am sorry to hear this. What I've heard about the latest batch, the thicker stuff was really giving issues for some folks. I Bought four bars of the .140" right when the latest batch came in, two are used up with basically zero issues. I don't have a Rockwell tester, but the standard 1650f normalizing, followed by 1475 thermal cycles a couple times, then 1425f thermal cycle, then 1375f thermal cycle, aus temp of 1475 for 15 minutes (chef knives), P50 oil warmed to 100f, triple tempers at 400f a brand new fine cut file would still skate even with some decent pressure. I know...not scientific at all, but I'm pretty sure I'm getting 63f after a 400f temper.
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Mine is the same thickness yours so I'm not sure. Even after quench before temper I am cut them in half by filing through.
 
A friend down the road has a bar that is .200 thick. I'm going to get a piece of it to run as a test coupon, and see if I get the same results.
 
Call Aldo and let him know what's going on.

Edit: I missed that you called NJSB. I guess keep trying.
 
I just tried the .200" thick piece and had identical sized piece of .140" thick in with it. Held 15 minutes at 1475 quenched. Both as quenched tested at 38. Piece of 1095 done at the same time quenched at 65. The piece from my friend was the first piece off of that bar. All I know is I'm frustrated.
 
Ryan Minchew said:
I just tried the .200" thick piece and had identical sized piece of .140" thick in with it. Held 15 minutes at 1475 quenched. Both as quenched tested at 38. Piece of 1095 done at the same time quenched at 65. The piece from my friend was the first piece off of that bar. All I know is I'm frustrated.
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If you want a second tester, I'd be happy to run a piece though my routine to see what I get. I'm sure you are doing things correctly, but it never hurts to have a second person confirm what isn't working. My e-mail is in my profile. Send me an e-mail and I'll give you my address.
 
I sure hope Aldo gets his W2 sorted out. I still get too many requests from folks wanting to buy W2 and I just don't have enough extra to sell.
 
I just got off the phone with a gentleman at NJSB. He said they had a bad batch and this may have been a straggler piece. They are sending me a new bar. I spent 18-20 hours in the shop yesterday doing nothing but trying to harden this steel. And I'm back at it today. Before I left the shop last night I had quenched with varying hold times anywhere from 1380-1650. I will have to look at my notes but I did the steel as it came and varying thermal/normalizing cycles with different coupons. I realize the thicker piece didn't harden either, but I'm convinced I'm not messing up. Two completely different steels with completely different processes hardened fine yesterday. I've read table salt melts at 1474
I drilled 4 pits in a bar of steel and poured salt into them. I set it in the oven at 1475 it got very very soft but did not melt. I ramped oven to 1490 and it melted. I've got over 50 coupons now and nothing is hard.
I quenched in water and parks 50 at varying points. The parks was anywhere from 95 to 120 degrees. It was 105 yesterday and the day before so cooling below 95 wasn't happening. I tried heating to 120 just to see. The oil is 5 gallons in an aluminum pot. Until yesterday it had only quenched 6 blades and I think 8 test coupons from when I was doing grain size test a few weeks ago. The oil is still very clean. Ive read where guys have had issues with water from condensation or other issues causing water in the oil. Just due to being in West Texas and having a dry climate I'm assuming I have no water issues.
 
Willie71 said:
If you want a second tester, I'd be happy to run a piece though my routine to see what I get. I'm sure you are doing things correctly, but it never hurts to have a second person confirm what isn't working. My e-mail is in my profile. Send me an e-mail and I'll give you my address.
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Willie I appreciate the offer. For now I'm going to see what the next piece does and also see if my buddy will try a piece. He has an evenheat amd parks to quench in as well. We both have forges but it's too hot to be using the oven much less the forge lol.
 
mike malosh said:
That's why I bought as much as I could form you when I did! and I wouldn't sell a ounce of it! LOL!!
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Lol. I recently asked Don if he had any for sale. I'm remember seeing him selling it, but at the time I didn't have much to work it with. I tend to hoard things I like, and came real close to buying a bunch back then. Now I've got a power hammer and forge and wish I would have ordered a bunch. My plan with this from Aldo was to work and do testing on this piece and then start ordering and hoarding it. But at this point I will find a different steel to concentrate on.
 
Rayn, just for the hell of it, try hardening a piece in your forge.
Then try a Oxy/acetylene torch if ya have one. I rarely use electric oven for W2 any more.
 
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