When did this Custom thing really take off?

[golok]

A decade or two ago, I have not heard of Custom made knives. I am sure there must have been isolated cases here and there where knife collectors had special orders for their chums who were either full time or part time knife makers.

In the last decade or so, Custom knives have suddenly taken on an added importance.

When did this specialised interest in customised blades take off? And who started the ball rolling. Did it move by its own momentum or did mounting interest among serious collectors gave it the impetus to propel it into the upper stratum where knife brahmins dwell?

For us ordinary folks, custom knives now seem as common as a customised golf club. I am just trying to clear up a bit of that history here.

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Make Love your strongest weapon. Compassion your shield and forgiveness your armour.

 

[txlazer]

I started it !
5 yrs ago
sorry i forgot to tell everyone

------------------
Unless you're the lead dog,The scenery never changes!!!
Gregg Lane
Peddler,of fine Goods

 

[Les Robertson]

Custom knives as we know the market today started in the early 70's. The first Guild Show was held in Kansas City, MO in the mid-70's.

The mid-80's brought the art market to the forefront. The "me" decade brought a lot of money into the market. There were of course a lot fewer makers. The circle was even smaller then.

The late 80's the Japanese Economy boomed and brought lots of money from overseas.
The interframe folder was king and makers and dealers were selling them as quickly as they could get them.

Early 90's, the Japanese Economy fell into recession. The interframe folders were returned to the US via mostly one dealer. These knives were "dumped". This made the knives in the collections of many Americans loose 50-80% of their value overnight.

One other thing happened the initials CNC wer introduced to the cusotm knife buying public. The custom knife makers utilizing this machine were not forthcoming with that information. Consequently, the buyers mis-understood what the "machine" can and cannot do.

This caused many collectors to leave custom knives.

Then in 1994 this new knife appeared, called the "tactical folder". They were (by folder stadards) inexpensive. You could get a large Sebenza for $250.00. Names like Carson, Crawford, Elishewitz, Emerson and Terzuola started to become in "demand".

Several clients told me, what they liked best about them was "even if the bottom dropped out on these knives, at least you could use them".

People now understand what a CNC machine, Laser cutting, water Jet cutting, etc, can and cannot do. Most understand that if it were not for makers utilizing this technology that materials such as titanium could not be used in a cost effective manner. That tactical folders would sell in the $700 range.

Factories seeing the future started recruiting custom knife makers for design input. Factories have huge advertising budgets. Consequently, they introudced their customers to custom knife makers and the custom versions of those knives.

About 1999 I started to notice former factory knife buyers moving into the custom market. Last year I averaged about 3-5 new customers a week who were buying their first custom knife. I suspect it was the same for most of the other dealers and many of the makers.

That brings us to today. Custom knives are stronger than ever, the base is ever expanding.

The Internet will only continue to bring new collectors to custom knives. As the photo's and information on custom knives available today is incredible.

Greg Lane, the "Al Gore" of custom knives.



------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

 

[Burke]

Les, thanks for that interesting summary of the recent history of the knife market. It's interesting how something like the Japanese economy can influence the knife-buying tastes of America's collectors.

 

[Blilious]

Les! 10x for sharing your experience. I'm sure you could write an article ten times longer about this - and I for one would love to read it...

 

[A. G. Russell]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Les Robertson:
Custom knives as we know the market today started in the early 70's. The first Guild Show was held in Kansas City, MO in the mid-70's.

The mid-80's brought the art market to the forefront. The "me" decade brought a lot of money into the market. There were of course a lot fewer makers. The circle was even smaller then.

The late 80's the Japanese Economy boomed and brought lots of money from overseas.
The interframe folder was king and makers and dealers were selling them as quickly as they could get them.

Early 90's, the Japanese Economy fell into recession. The interframe folders were returned to the US via mostly one dealer. These knives were "dumped". This made the knives in the collections of many Americans loose 50-80% of their value overnight.

One other thing happened the initials CNC wer introduced to the cusotm knife buying public. The custom knife makers utilizing this machine were not forthcoming with that information. Consequently, the buyers mis-understood what the "machine" can and cannot do.

This caused many collectors to leave custom knives.

Then in 1994 this new knife appeared, called the "tactical folder". They were (by folder stadards) inexpensive. You could get a large Sebenza for $250.00. Names like Carson, Crawford, Elishewitz, Emerson and Terzuola started to become in "demand".

Several clients told me, what they liked best about them was "even if the bottom dropped out on these knives, at least you could use them".

People now understand what a CNC machine, Laser cutting, water Jet cutting, etc, can and cannot do. Most understand that if it were not for makers utilizing this technology that materials such as titanium could not be used in a cost effective manner. That tactical folders would sell in the $700 range.

Factories seeing the future started recruiting custom knife makers for design input. Factories have huge advertising budgets. Consequently, they introudced their customers to custom knife makers and the custom versions of those knives.

About 1999 I started to notice former factory knife buyers moving into the custom market. Last year I averaged about 3-5 new customers a week who were buying their first custom knife. I suspect it was the same for most of the other dealers and many of the makers.

That brings us to today. Custom knives are stronger than ever, the base is ever expanding.

The Internet will only continue to bring new collectors to custom knives. As the photo's and information on custom knives available today is incredible.

Greg Lane, the "Al Gore" of custom knives.


</font>

Sorry Les (or Greg)

The first Guild Show was in Houston in 1971, The Guild was formed on Sat night at a gun show in Tulsa in June of 1970.

The problem in Japan was not the economy, it was an American knife dealer who espressed his opinion at the Tokyo show of how stupid he thought the Japanese collectors were to pay the prices they were paying him and others for engraved interframe knives. That opinion swept through the collector community like wild fire and killed the market for those knives dead. The Japenese continued to buy knives, just not those styles and not from those makers.

If you want to know how much of the growth came about let me know and I will tell you.

A. G.

 

[txlazer]

Come on guys
GreGG has three (3) G's in it for petes sake

AL GORE for custom knives, gezzz i hope i'm not that DULL

------------------
Unless you're the lead dog,The scenery never changes!!!
Gregg Lane
Peddler,of fine Goods

 

[Tom Anderson]

"People now understand what a CNC machine, Laser cutting, water Jet cutting, etc, can and cannot do. Most understand that if it were not for makers utilizing this technology that materials such as titanium could not be used in a cost effective manner. That tactical folders would sell in the $700 range."

Guess I should raise my prices, huh?

Just remember.....Not every maker can, must, or wants to use all this technology on his or her knives! From what I've heard, there are still a lot of one-man shops that don't subcontact blades and handles just so the maker can pump out several knives a day.

Still, it might all depend on one's backlog. (You wouldn't want to shovel a foot of snow from your driveway with a teaspoon, would you?)

Good point to consider, though!

------------------
Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives


www.andersoncustomknives.com

[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 04-21-2001).]

 

[Les Robertson]

AG,

I stand corrected on the first Guild Show.

While I agree with you about the dealer and the show in Tokyo. I will stand with my opinion about the Japanese Economy. When was the last time you saw teams of Japanese buyers walking through a knife show.

I know you have been around for a lot longer than I have, so I for one would like to get your take on what is causing the growth of the custom knife market.



------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

 

[chubby]

How strong is the Japanese demand? Is it a large part of the population? What kind of stuff do they like? I know makers like strider and ryan are busy filling huge orders for the japanese market and I'm curious.

 

[A. G. Russell]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Les Robertson:
AG,

I stand corrected on the first Guild Show.

While I agree with you about the dealer and the show in Tokyo. I will stand with my opinion about the Japanese Economy. When was the last time you saw teams of Japanese buyers walking through a knife show.

I know you have been around for a lot longer than I have, so I for one would like to get your take on what is causing the growth of the custom knife market.


</font>

Les; You bet, the economy has had an effect on the market place for knives in Japan. However I have seen dealers from Japan at every Guild show I have been to for years and while I do not pay as much attention at the Blade Show I did see at least one there last year. I am told that a Japanese just paid $7,000 for a Loveless Delaware Maid at the show in Eugene OR. The only team of Japanese I have ever seen was a collector and the young lady that translated for him. Most Japanese collectors rely on dealers to bring the knives to them.

I have puzzled over the growth in this business for many years. I have no doubt what caused the jump in 1966 and what caused the huge jump in 1968-1969 and I think that I know what feeds this year after year. I think that every new maker who comes into the business brings new customers along with him as well. The web has brought people who have not been buyers before, and they buy diferent knives than previous buyers.

A. G.

 

[ptpalpha]

Les, A.G., ....MORE! This is perhaps the most interesting thread to come along in quite a while (at least from my perspective). I would dearly love to read more on this topic.
One thing that I'd really like to hear is what both of you think the future holds for the custom market.
-Paul

 

[Les Robertson]

AG,

I agree with your assessment of more makers means more customers. I think the Internet has and will continue to be a major influence on the custom knife market.

Back in the 80's when I started in custom knives, I could not have imagined this type of information being available. I would have never got off the computer.

Instead I had to go talk to that era's version of the Internet...Paul Basch.

I think that the information on the Internet and web sites such as this one have helped to make people feel comfortable about purchasing a very expensive knife.

Additionally, there are many new steels, handle materials and improved machinary that is helping the maker produce a better knife while eliminating much of the learning curve.

All this being said, the maker still has to be able to have the ability to make the knife.

As for Trends in Custom Knives. Steve Shackelford the Editor of Blade Magazine has asked Bob Neal, Jerry Schroeder and myself to conduct a seminar on just that topic at this years Blade Show. The Seminar will be conducted sometime Saturday afternoon.

If your going to be at the show, you might want to drop by. You'll have about 45 years of custom knife buying experience in the room.

Bob has a lot of expertise in presentation grade folders, Jerry is an expert in $$$$ folders and auto folders.

When I have a question about this type of knife, these are a few of the guys on a very short list that I ask advice from.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

 

[fisk]

Les
If your seminar is not same time as the one I help with I sure would like to catch yours.
I agree with your assement of Paul Basch, he has a vast storage of knife knowledge and is up front and honest about it. His knowledge of second market knives gives me insights as to what to advise or not on some pieces I do.

 

[golok]

Bravo gentlemen. What a wonderful discourse on a subject that has caught my attention sometime ago but gave me no answers.

It is nice to listen from my learned colleagues on the inside story of how the course of custom knives was charted.

How I wish more seniors from the knife circles would speak up and tell up what else they know. It would certainly benefit all of us sitting out there among the audience.

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Make Love your strongest weapon. Compassion your shield and forgiveness your armour.

[This message has been edited by golok (edited 04-23-2001).]

 

[Blilious]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Les Robertson:
AG,
...
As for Trends in Custom Knives. Steve Shackelford the Editor of Blade Magazine has asked Bob Neal, Jerry Schroeder and myself to conduct a seminar on just that topic at this years Blade Show. The Seminar will be conducted sometime Saturday afternoon.

If your going to be at the show, you might want to drop by. You'll have about 45 years of custom knife buying experience in the room.
...
</font>

For those of us - unfortunate enough not to be in the show (just flying there from israel will be 1500$) - any chance of the information being added to this thread or any other - to benefit us all?

this subject looks like it could use a whole forum:

History of knives/ knives making..

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Blilous,

I agree with you, there probably could be a whole forum devoted to the custom knife market of the last 40 years.

There are several people on this forum who could give expert opinions, take AG for example.

The "history" is not limited to makers and dealers, many collectors or groups of collectors have had a major impact as well.

Remember, if there are no customers, there are no custom knives.

After the Blade Show is over, Ill try an summarize what was discussed at the Trends Seminar.

Like most things, it is good to be a student of history. As generally, we like to re-invent the wheel (even though we say we don't). I see the clothes my daughters are starting to wear remind me of those my sister wore in the 1970's.

There will always be a demand for the "classic" designs. Just as there will always be a demand for the artistic knives with a flair!

Buy all the books you can on custom knives. Learn who the great ones were. Those that brought us to this point. If it weren't for guys like Loveless, Moran, Stone, Ek, Draper, Hibben, Ruana, Cooper, Randall, Centofante, Horn, AG Russell, Herron, Walker, Schneider, etc. The state of custom knives would not be where it is today.



------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

 

[Blilious]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Les Robertson:
Hi Blilous,

I agree with you, there probably could be a whole forum devoted to the custom knife market of the last 40 years.


</font>

I do love it when moderators on the forum agree with me - it fills me with that tingly sensation...even if they misspell my name…

Seriously though - I appreciate your effort in making a summery of the seminar for us natives who don't live in the you-ass-of-a.

 

[See2]

This is great! It's like History was in High School, but better, and not as boring!

It's amazing to read about the past of customs, and as a beginning collector, it's good to see what has happened "before". What's amazing (to me, anyway) is there's this whole WORLD out there I had no idea existed until a buddy of mine told me about the Forum. All the different styles, makers, designs... who woulda thunk it?

Of course, I now have the addiction seated quite well in my mind. I keep finding new makers every day that I want knives from (like YOU, Tom Anderson! The Sandpiper, Sidewinder, and Howler are amazing! Don't raise your prices - I still have to get an order or three in!!

) It's just a question of time (or, to boil it down, patience - when some of the makers you want pieces from have 8 month to year - and sometimes longer! - backlogs...) and money. I'll tell ya, back in '94, I had the Emerson catalog, and I WANTED the CQC6. But, for a 24-year old, $450 was just too much for a knife. And, there was already a three year wait! So I didn't do it. Of course, I see "my" knife being sold today for $2000+, and my foot finds it's way to my a$$.

Won't make THAT mistake again.

Thanks for a great thread, guys!!

Chris

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Of course, that's just MY opinion - I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

 

[Tom Anderson]

I think Mr. Robertson's last post sums it up very well. If it were not for those makers who cleared the path over the last few decades, and the customers who keep buying custom knives, the custom knife market would be extinct and this forum simply wouldn't exist.

"Trends" are extrememly important. That is why so many knife makers subscribe to the knife publications, go to as many shows as they can, and listen carefully when the "experts" talk. Anticiapting "trends" motivates many custom makers of contemporary styled knives to continually develop ideas and meld them into new models with exciting lines and exotic materials while still delivering top performance.

Trends also have an impact on those who craft the timeless, traditional pieces like multi-blade slip joint folders and Bowies.

Fortunately, there are many paths one can follow - and on each path will lie "trends." This diversity seems directly proportional to the growing numbers of collectors as well as the influence of "experts."

I believe there are experts in all facets in the realm of custom knives. These experts include dealers, writers, established makers, manufacturers, and collectors. Each group has had a considerable impact on the development of today's custom knife market. We are fortunate, indeed!

I'll join the motion for a "History" Forum!

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives


www.andersoncustomknives.com

[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 04-22-2001).]