When do you say "That's sharp enough."?

I'm usually satisfied when I can get what you described, an effortless, whisper-quiet cut through phonebook paper.
 
If I'm going for a novelty type edge to see how sharp I can get it, I'll just keep honing until I'm tired of it and see how sharp it is. This is fun because sometimes I surprise myself and get a little bit sharper than I have before. Gets difficult to put it into any terms that really convey the difference and really there's a level of "diminishing returns" where one level of sharpness isn't really all that significant over another for any practical means, and at a point it gets so difficult to determine any actual increase in sharpness that you cannot tell if it's actually sharper than previous or not. In other words, a knife that passes a "hanging hair test" is sharper than one that can whittle a free-hanging hair, but you'd never be able to tell the difference in those levels of sharpness when actually cutting anything. Even shaving you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between some of the higher echelon levels of sharpness and really I don't think anyone ever even comes to a strong consensus on which of these levels is "sharper" than the rest. I get a kick out of whittling hair because I stop and think for a second, "Wait... Now I'm just literally splitting hairs."

But so far as having a "standard" for the least level of sharpness I'll be satisfied with, I'm generally pretty happy with what is described in the first post. I actually don't cut a lot of paper though, I tend to just use a three finger test and see how difficult it is to split a beard hair held between my thumb and index finger and in my experience this level will push-cut, S-cut and all sorts of other stuff through phonebook or other thin paper.

Truth be told, I think once you've done any kind of substantial cutting--that is more than just cutting paper to test--things dull out and stabilize right around the level described in the first post. My knives will whittle hair after having made a couple dozen cuts through paper. On the other hand, they still maintain hair popping for hundreds of cuts which to me is more important and practical and truth be told, once you've spent the extra time into getting an edge from this level to that atom-splitting sharpness you've invested much meticulousness in, it makes you hesitant to use it because you know that you only have a few good cuts until its reduced to mere satisfactory levels of sharpness. I tend to annoy myself with that, since I have knives to cut things, not keep them in my pocket and keep them nice and freakishly sharp to do nothing with. It starts this odd thing of seeing how long you can hold out on using your knife and you find yourself fiddling with the perforated tears on food bags you'd normally just cut, all because you think the plastic packaging might dull your wicked edge haha

So yeah long story short, I think it's fun and a good idea for practice's sake to try to get a knife as sharp as you possibly can, because having the practice in doing that means you'll more easily be able to put a more satisfactory edge on it and have a wider range to decide where your standard for satisfactory sharpness is--but I think people get way too caught up in it. What I've actually been practicing now is getting knives as sharp as I can in a limited amount of time since I've found that how much time you have to sharpen usually is a bigger, more important factor than how sharp you can get them. However when it comes to getting a knife to at least hair popping I think it's a good idea not just for pride in having an edge that keen, but because once its that sharp it will take that much longer to dull out--but like I said, there's the point of diminishing returns, where you can spend that extra hour to go from hair popping to hair whittling, and it will hold that extreme sharpness for maybe a handful of cuts and then go right to hair poppping.
 
KennyB said:
If I'm going for a novelty type edge to see how sharp I can get it, I'll just keep honing until I'm tired of it and see how sharp it is. This is fun because sometimes I surprise myself and get a little bit sharper than I have before. Gets difficult to put it into any terms that really convey the difference and really there's a level of "diminishing returns" where one level of sharpness isn't really all that significant over another for any practical means, and at a point it gets so difficult to determine any actual increase in sharpness that you cannot tell if it's actually sharper than previous or not. In other words, a knife that passes a "hanging hair test" is sharper than one that can whittle a free-hanging hair, but you'd never be able to tell the difference in those levels of sharpness when actually cutting anything. Even shaving you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between some of the higher echelon levels of sharpness and really I don't think anyone ever even comes to a strong consensus on which of these levels is "sharper" than the rest. I get a kick out of whittling hair because I stop and think for a second, "Wait... Now I'm just literally splitting hairs."

But so far as having a "standard" for the least level of sharpness I'll be satisfied with, I'm generally pretty happy with what is described in the first post. I actually don't cut a lot of paper though, I tend to just use a three finger test and see how difficult it is to split a beard hair held between my thumb and index finger and in my experience this level will push-cut, S-cut and all sorts of other stuff through phonebook or other thin paper.

Truth be told, I think once you've done any kind of substantial cutting--that is more than just cutting paper to test--things dull out and stabilize right around the level described in the first post. My knives will whittle hair after having made a couple dozen cuts through paper. On the other hand, they still maintain hair popping for hundreds of cuts which to me is more important and practical and truth be told, once you've spent the extra time into getting an edge from this level to that atom-splitting sharpness you've invested much meticulousness in, it makes you hesitant to use it because you know that you only have a few good cuts until its reduced to mere satisfactory levels of sharpness. I tend to annoy myself with that, since I have knives to cut things, not keep them in my pocket and keep them nice and freakishly sharp to do nothing with. It starts this odd thing of seeing how long you can hold out on using your knife and you find yourself fiddling with the perforated tears on food bags you'd normally just cut, all because you think the plastic packaging might dull your wicked edge haha

So yeah long story short, I think it's fun and a good idea for practice's sake to try to get a knife as sharp as you possibly can, because having the practice in doing that means you'll more easily be able to put a more satisfactory edge on it and have a wider range to decide where your standard for satisfactory sharpness is--but I think people get way too caught up in it. What I've actually been practicing now is getting knives as sharp as I can in a limited amount of time since I've found that how much time you have to sharpen usually is a bigger, more important factor than how sharp you can get them. However when it comes to getting a knife to at least hair popping I think it's a good idea not just for pride in having an edge that keen, but because once its that sharp it will take that much longer to dull out--but like I said, there's the point of diminishing returns, where you can spend that extra hour to go from hair popping to hair whittling, and it will hold that extreme sharpness for maybe a handful of cuts and then go right to hair poppping.
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Very well stated. Especially the part about getting our knives so sharp that we are reticent to use them! Yup, I experience that often...so ridiculous! :). Like I said, one of the things I have been appreciating about s30v lately is that I can put a vicious toothy edge on it off of medium stones. If I keep pushing this steel past that toothy edge, not only do I get diminishing returns, I often get NEGATIVE returns. I appreciate that aspect of the steel because it helps keep me from going full on OCD! :). And I can get it to whittle hair off the brown sm stones, so it's pretty easy to stop there and say "sharp enough"!
 
For me, I practiced how to sharpen as quickly as possible but still split skin.

on average I 'sharpen' on a 8000 for less than 30 seconds but has to split skin on contact.

I learned this from being a sushi chef, sometimes 10-20 seconds is all you have.
 
Like several others, I use phone book paper to test sharpness….got sick of having bald spots on my arms/legs.
 
I have a habit of cutting food extremely thin, as it does show how sharp edge is.

if there is burr or improper polishing it tears food.
 
KennyB said:
If I'm going for a novelty type edge to see how sharp I can get it, I'll just keep honing until I'm tired of it and see how sharp it is. This is fun because sometimes I surprise myself and get a little bit sharper than I have before. Gets difficult to put it into any terms that really convey the difference and really there's a level of "diminishing returns" where one level of sharpness isn't really all that significant over another for any practical means, and at a point it gets so difficult to determine any actual increase in sharpness that you cannot tell if it's actually sharper than previous or not. In other words, a knife that passes a "hanging hair test" is sharper than one that can whittle a free-hanging hair, but you'd never be able to tell the difference in those levels of sharpness when actually cutting anything. Even shaving you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between some of the higher echelon levels of sharpness and really I don't think anyone ever even comes to a strong consensus on which of these levels is "sharper" than the rest. I get a kick out of whittling hair because I stop and think for a second, "Wait... Now I'm just literally splitting hairs."

But so far as having a "standard" for the least level of sharpness I'll be satisfied with, I'm generally pretty happy with what is described in the first post. I actually don't cut a lot of paper though, I tend to just use a three finger test and see how difficult it is to split a beard hair held between my thumb and index finger and in my experience this level will push-cut, S-cut and all sorts of other stuff through phonebook or other thin paper.

Truth be told, I think once you've done any kind of substantial cutting--that is more than just cutting paper to test--things dull out and stabilize right around the level described in the first post. My knives will whittle hair after having made a couple dozen cuts through paper. On the other hand, they still maintain hair popping for hundreds of cuts which to me is more important and practical and truth be told, once you've spent the extra time into getting an edge from this level to that atom-splitting sharpness you've invested much meticulousness in, it makes you hesitant to use it because you know that you only have a few good cuts until its reduced to mere satisfactory levels of sharpness. I tend to annoy myself with that, since I have knives to cut things, not keep them in my pocket and keep them nice and freakishly sharp to do nothing with. It starts this odd thing of seeing how long you can hold out on using your knife and you find yourself fiddling with the perforated tears on food bags you'd normally just cut, all because you think the plastic packaging might dull your wicked edge haha

So yeah long story short, I think it's fun and a good idea for practice's sake to try to get a knife as sharp as you possibly can, because having the practice in doing that means you'll more easily be able to put a more satisfactory edge on it and have a wider range to decide where your standard for satisfactory sharpness is--but I think people get way too caught up in it. What I've actually been practicing now is getting knives as sharp as I can in a limited amount of time since I've found that how much time you have to sharpen usually is a bigger, more important factor than how sharp you can get them. However when it comes to getting a knife to at least hair popping I think it's a good idea not just for pride in having an edge that keen, but because once its that sharp it will take that much longer to dull out--but like I said, there's the point of diminishing returns, where you can spend that extra hour to go from hair popping to hair whittling, and it will hold that extreme sharpness for maybe a handful of cuts and then go right to hair poppping.
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You're like smart and stuff.:D
 
Re Kenny B's post, been there and done that and still do, occasionally. Totally agree with his conclusion that the Law of Diminishing Returns applies to edges. Generally, I sharpen to whatever degree it enhances and prolongs my cutting ability with respect to a given task. Anything else is entertainment and reserved for idle time. (I AM retired=good deal of idle time.:D)
 
Good read Kenny. I agree with you on many of the points you made. I'm interested in learning how to get my blade hair whittling sharp. Only so I can say that I can achieve that level of sharpness, not actually have all my knives be that sharp. I'd imagine a blade would experience many rolls and chips with any kind of light wood work, when they are that sharp. If you could bring yourself to touch wood with that sharp of a blade.

Thanks for the read.
 
Joe Duder said:
I usually sharpen my blades until they're hair popping sharp. Meaning, the hairs jump off my arm with very little pressure from my blade and without seeing dry or rubbed off skin. Then I usually test it on news print. I usually want a nice smooth, effortless, sharp cut through the print. Then I do an S shaped cut through the print. If I see paper fibers sticking out of the cut or the paper catches on any point of the blade, I usually strop it a bit more. I basically like my knives just shy of, if not, razor sharp.

Is this too sharp?

What are your tests?

At what point do you say "That's one sharp son of a ..."

Thanks, Duder.
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First thing is for me to determine the type of edge I even want on the knife I'm sharpening. Not all are going to be doing the same kinds of cutting jobs so they don't need or get the same types of edges of course. When I call it sharp is pretty much at the same point though. I take the first side down to a burr all up and down the cutting length. Then do the same for the other side. Once a burr is even on both sides and formed any further sharpening is oversharpening so you knock off the burr. Now technically you are true at the apex. The blade is sharp. So now you decide what kind of edge do I need. Do I want the one left here and now do you leave it gritty and aggressive or do you polish it out nice on a strop in the end? For me a whittle knife would be the one I'd polish up. I'll likely be doing push cuts with that so my split back whittlers and other carving knives are all stropped up. For my pocket knife well, thats a different story. I like a middle of the road edge. You know something that will do some push cuttin' and some slicin' so I tend to use the Edge Pro on it and just stop at the med. stone knock the burr off and call it done. If I'm out in the truck and fishing and need to dehead and open up a mess of fish for the grill I'm whipping out the EzeeLap course diamond and some green river knives (long ones that flex you know em) and me and whoever is with me is going to town in the flat bed. One thing with me you don't just stand and watch. You take part or get out the way! :eek: Seriously once you got a good bevel then its just a matter of determining what you are going to be doing with it. If you are a cobbler cutting a lot of hard leather you might like a little scandi grind nice and thin taken to a true zero edge not one of those false scandi wannabe edges. If you don't know what type edge you want well thats the fun beginning there. That is when you start experimenting and playing so one day twenty years from now you can tell everyone your experience and how it relates to use of the item in hand, I.E., yer knife!
 
Joe Duder said:
Good read Kenny. I agree with you on many of the points you made. I'm interested in learning how to get my blade hair whittling sharp. Only so I can say that I can achieve that level of sharpness, not actually have all my knives be that sharp. I'd imagine a blade would experience many rolls and chips with any kind of light wood work, when they are that sharp. If you could bring yourself to touch wood with that sharp of a blade.

Thanks for the read.
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Thanks,

Also, in my opinion I don't think that having an edge refined to being hair whittling will affect edge retention unless you had to change the edge angle itself. The little "microdeformations" or "blemishes" that you can see on an edge under heavy light that are associated with just normal wear and abrasion are just more noticeable on an edge that refined in my opinion. Reason being is that an edge so refined as to whittle hair, will be for the most part invisible under even bright light and magnification. So once you incur any of those little blemishes from wear, the contrast from the highly reflective blemish makes it seem more severe than it really is. Or in other words... If you took a piece of brushed alluminum and slid it across the floor you wouldn't notice any scratches, but try the same thing with a polished piece and the contrast will make it seem like it suffered worse damage when in reality the wear is the same.

Ultimately if you took two identical axes, same abrasive finish and just sharpened one until it was hair popping and one until it whittled hair, they would both be exactly as sharp and stay exactly as sharp after only one or two swings into wood.
 
Joe Duder said:
Good read Kenny. I agree with you on many of the points you made. I'm interested in learning how to get my blade hair whittling sharp. Only so I can say that I can achieve that level of sharpness, not actually have all my knives be that sharp. I'd imagine a blade would experience many rolls and chips with any kind of light wood work, when they are that sharp. If you could bring yourself to touch wood with that sharp of a blade.

Thanks for the read.
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Kenny already touched on a lot of this, I just want to reiterate that hair whittling edges don't need to be delicate. I take most of my EDC knives to hair whittling sharpness. The only edge that's ever rolled was my Spyderco Tenacious, and that was because I accidentally tried to cut a small piece of steel (to be fair, it was painted to look like wood :rolleyes:). These knives are a true pleasure to use, but they have certainly pampered me. To me, there is nothing worse than trying to open my mail and having the envelope tear a little :D
 
STR said:
First thing is for me to determine the type of edge I even want on the knife I'm sharpening. Not all are going to be doing the same kinds of cutting jobs so they don't need or get the same types of edges of course. When I call it sharp is pretty much at the same point though. I take the first side down to a burr all up and down the cutting length. Then do the same for the other side. Once a burr is even on both sides and formed any further sharpening is oversharpening so you knock off the burr. Now technically you are true at the apex. The blade is sharp. So now you decide what kind of edge do I need. Do I want the one left here and now do you leave it gritty and aggressive or do you polish it out nice on a strop in the end? For me a whittle knife would be the one I'd polish up. I'll likely be doing push cuts with that so my split back whittlers and other carving knives are all stropped up. For my pocket knife well, thats a different story. I like a middle of the road edge. You know something that will do some push cuttin' and some slicin' so I tend to use the Edge Pro on it and just stop at the med. stone knock the burr off and call it done. If I'm out in the truck and fishing and need to dehead and open up a mess of fish for the grill I'm whipping out the EzeeLap course diamond and some green river knives (long ones that flex you know em) and me and whoever is with me is going to town in the flat bed. One thing with me you don't just stand and watch. You take part or get out the way! :eek: Seriously once you got a good bevel then its just a matter of determining what you are going to be doing with it. If you are a cobbler cutting a lot of hard leather you might like a little scandi grind nice and thin taken to a true zero edge not one of those false scandi wannabe edges. If you don't know what type edge you want well thats the fun beginning there. That is when you start experimenting and playing so one day twenty years from now you can tell everyone your experience and how it relates to use of the item in hand, I.E., yer knife!
Click to expand...


The above falls into line with my philosophy. Intended use determines edge finish determines longevity. Have personally experienced rapid edge failure on high polished knives under certain applications, so gave up long ago on a "one edge works for everything" mentality. A toothy edge is not a polished edge gone a little dull. I consider it the process of sculpting formations into the edge that will interact with whatever I'm cutting to best advantage. Some materials will want no formations, some will want aggressive formations. My theory is based on pressure at the edge - if a coarse draw cut will part a given material with less pressure that edge will last longer. If a polished push cut will part a given material with less pressure that edge will last longer. For EDU something in the middle will do the best job across a range of materials.
 
HeavyHanded said:
The above falls into line with my philosophy. Intended use determines edge finish determines longevity. Have personally experienced rapid edge failure on high polished knives under certain applications, so gave up long ago on a "one edge works for everything" mentality. A toothy edge is not a polished edge gone a little dull. I consider it the process of sculpting formations into the edge that will interact with whatever I'm cutting to best advantage. Some materials will want no formations, some will want aggressive formations. My theory is based on pressure at the edge - if a coarse draw cut will part a given material with less pressure that edge will last longer. If a polished push cut will part a given material with less pressure that edge will last longer. For EDU something in the middle will do the best job across a range of materials.
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Yeah, but I think what we're talking about here is when your real intended purpose is just to get the knife as sharp as possible with whatever your desired finish is. Coarse, balanced or polished I think most of this is talk about apex refinement, getting it as sharp as you can on the final honing process--and at one point you go "Okay, that's enough..."

The interesting thing though, at the end yousay that for everyday use something that falls into the middle does the best job across a wide range of material and I think that's true. I've also read that on the DMT website reccomending their 600 grit hone for the "balanced" finish," also in Smith's manuals, and in countless knife manufacturer's manuals. So like, in some ways it's great to invest all the thought and evaluation into what edge is going to work best for whatever use, for most people who just want an everday use edge, it's spelled out in quite a lot of places that a medium finish may be best for that. It seems however that a lot of people want to buck traditional wisdom and see big numbers on the grits, people using all sorts of strops and compounds, and thinking that high polish is directly equivalent to an edge being "sharper".

Edit: That last line may have seemed like I was implying something about those who like high polish finishes, not the case, just an observation that I think it is a little misleading to some
 
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