When Is It O.K. To Cancel a Knife Order?

RWS

RWS

Joined
Jul 10, 2003
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As a collector of Bowies, I order almost all of my knives directly from the various makers that I like.
I find myself having a number of orders outstanding, with different makers, at any given time. The wait list on all of them is quite long.

My question is... When is it o.k. for a customer to cancel their order with the maker?

I have been using a rule of thumb which is it's alright to cancel up to the point before he tells me he's going to start my knife.

However, if you ordered something that he normally doesn't make and he had to buy a bunch of weird material for the project, then what?

Then, I think most makers would ask for a deposit or progress payments or turn down the job completely, anyway. I have not had this experience because I order what the maker makes.

With these long waits from certain makers of 12 months to 4 years, sometimes 6-9 months if your lucky, I have noticed that sometimes I change my mind as time passes.

Is this o.k.?
 
Not alot of reponses so far, so let me start it off.

I don't mind a customer cancelling an order. With a long backlog, I'm old enough and smart enough to understand that the customer may change directions on what he likes and wants. I would hazard a guess that several members of this forum have experienced that and called or email me and got a "no sweat" response.

I look at an order as a potential, not a car payment. I see a car payment when the knife is finished and the check is on the way.

Like you said, if there is special materials, special processes, etc and a deposit was involved, that makes for a different situation. Even it can be worked out easily enough.

I have a hard time seeing an email order as a "binding contract". I'm sure there will be some flack over the way I see it, but, non the less...I have a hard time forcing a knife on a customer when I know he doesn't want it, or times got hard and he can't afford it. For a maker, delivering a long awaited knife and 2 days later seeing it come up for sale is a heartbreak....
 
One of the problems for makers when they have a long delivery time is that what their customers collect now they might not collect two/three/four years from now.

I do believe that it is ok at times to cancel an order, but I have done it twice. Both times was because my taste in knives had changed. Still, I felt like a real jerk at the time I cancelled.

My thoughts are these; if I am no longer interested in a style of knife that I have on order and the maker does not make the knives I currently prefer then I will cancel. If the maker does make knives in my favorite style I will change my order, not cancel.

Another thing, I am willing to pay a deposit on any knife that I order, not just the ones with really special materials. If I do not carry through with my part of the deal then the maker can keep my deposit. Most makers refuse when I offer a deposit, but this is always something I leave up to them.

So, is it ok to cancel an order for a knife? Yes, if there is no way you can work with the maker to get a knife that will make you happy, or if your financial situation has made it impossible for you to follow through. Just make sure you do this in plenty of time to make sure the maker doesn't start on your knife and don't depend on the maker advising you that the knife is about to be started. This is not always done. I have had makers contact me to say the knife will be ready to ship in a week and could I please send the money.

Edited to add:

I noticed that Kit replied to this thread as I was posting. He is one of the makers with which I cancelled an order. I felt like a real jackass, but Kit was very understanding and I really appreciated how he handled the situation.
 
I also have cancelled an order 2 times. Both were for very different reasons. One was because the maker keept on lieing about my order and I never could get past it, I am very glad I cancelled this order since I wasn't the only one haveing problems with him. The other was because of some hard times I ran into. The maker, K. Carson was very understanding and he treated me just as nice as if I was placeing an order instead of cancelling it. Needless to say a year later I finnally got a M4 and have beentreated well, more than well in fact. If you have to cancel then talk with the maker and explain why. I'm sure they will understand.
 
Hi Keith and Kit,
I have cancelled a couple of times and I felt like you, Keith. Eventhough the knives were not even close to being started, I felt awkward doing it but, I surely didn't feel like I cheated anyone. I think as long as it's done before the knife is started it should be alright like you said, Keith.

I'm certain the makers I have chosen to deal with are much like Kit and can sell everything they make as soon as they make it.

I do ask the makers to please let me know just before they begin the knife so I can send them the money or even possibly make minor changes to my original order if I want. Your right Keith, I shouldn't rely on that for timing a cancellation.

I cancelled an order with Harvey Dean a few months ago because I couldn't make up my twisted mind about the engraver or the type of Damascus I really wanted for the knife. He was so cool about it. I felt awkward though. I finally made up my mind and called him several weeks later and placed the order for what I want. He was just as cool the second time around.

Edited to add:
I wanted to add that Mr. Dean wasn't close to starting my knife when I cancelled.
 
My policy has been to put the order down and when I get ready to start on it, I will call the customer. Sometimes I start on it and things happen and it is still a long time before I can complete the knife. Right now I am working on the knives for my MS and kind of getting caught up on some that were due before I messed up my back. And like Kit said, it isn't sold till it is sold. I have had a couple that didn't come through but they are in a very small majority of customers. I personally see no reason why cancelling an order could cause any hardships on the maker. If they have a long enough back log for the customer to change his mind or habits, then they should have enough orders to keep them busy. And if it has been a couple of years, the price of the newer orders will be higher so they would make enough to cover the additional expenses for the later knives. Maybe
I would hate to have to buy some expensive materials for a special purpose knife that wasn't expecially of my design and have them back out after I was almost completed. I guess I won't do that then. :)
Just rambling a little I guess. :)
 
I agree with what has been said here. It's OK to cancel an order, especially if the knife hasn't been started. If there are high end materials involved, or, if it's a unique "one-off", then, I think it's a good idea to establish that the customer still wants the knife before the maker starts work.
 
Originally posted by Kit Carson
For a maker, delivering a long awaited knife and 2 days later seeing it come up for sale is a heartbreak.... [/B]
Click to expand...

I can truly understand that! I am staying alot over in the German Knife Forum (www.messerforum.net) and I saw that kind of thing happening quite often.

Someone brag about getting a beauty of a knife soon from a wellknown american maker. A few months later same guy posts a review, going like: the best knife ever owned..., gorgeous..., WOOW!

And then just TWO WEEKS later same knife from same guy appears in the "for sale" forum:confused:

I just hope this maker never visits the German Knife Forum....
This would be a heartbreak for sure...
 
i was going through some financial troubles and tried to cancell a knife through a maker, i'll use his initials LD. i advised him of what was hapening and also said he can keep the deposit(i think that is only fair, he flat out refused and put me to the back of the list and said it will be there when i was ready.
i now have the knife and love it. he spent alot of time on it and it turned out very nice. craftsmanship aside i tip my hat to this man for being a good person. i cant wait to get something else from him. and plan on doing this very soon.
 
As a fundamental free-market kind of guy, I would say that the best way to answer the question is:

"Whenever the maker and the customer agree is appropriate."

IOW, the maker should either have a policy/guideline on when orders can be canceled, or the customer can hash it out with the maker and come to an agreement.

As in so many things in life, it is better to have these things figured out in advance.
 
Originally posted by RWS
However, if you ordered something that he normally doesn't make and he had to buy a bunch of weird material for the project, then what?
Click to expand...

If he didn't already start to make the knife in question, I'd just ask him if he would sell me the materials he purchased and maybe add 10% to the sum in order to reimburse him for any inconvenience he might have had.
 
I had a customer cancel not one but 2 orders with me. I made the first one, then he emailed me to say that it wasn't what was agreed on, and we re-discussed the pattern etc. Made the next one and he REALLY responded BADLY to the second one and pulled out altogether. They were nice knives (IMHO) with fairly rare wood on the handles and they both sold a couple of weeks later after I put them up for sale.

To date, I still don't understand what happened. Presuming it was my fault as the maker, perhaps I didn't follow the precise plans closely enough (I thought I did). Maybe I used too much artistic license in creating the knives. If so, then MAYBE it was OK the fellow cancelled the orders. I was in no mood to argue the point, and I certainly didn't have the experience to argue the point. I politely backed off and wished him well and better luck with another maker... :(

For the reason that I generally do it "my way," I don't take deposits. But maybe thats my threshold as relatively new maker, that I can't afford to P*** off anyone. Other makers might have different ideas and may have to execute a Business Plan to pay the mortgage.

I do understand that people change their minds, and a long waiting list makes that more likely to happen. But then again, the guys with a long wait list, could sell their knives ANYTIME, even if someone pulled out ??? Still, I reckon it would always sting... :(

Pardon my rambling, just unloading some grief here. Jason.
 
Originally posted by IamMatt
As a fundamental free-market kind of guy, I would say that the best way to answer the question is:

"Whenever the maker and the customer agree is appropriate."

IOW, the maker should either have a policy/guideline on when orders can be canceled, or the customer can hash it out with the maker and come to an agreement.

As in so many things in life, it is better to have these things figured out in advance.
Click to expand...

I wonder how often the possible cancellation of an order comes up during the discussion leading to the ordering of a knife. This would be inserting a negative into the deal and would probably be something that both the prospective buyer and maker would be reluctant to do. I know that I would be very uncomfortable asking a maker what his policy is on cancellations. My thinking on this is that it might put a little something into the back of the makers mind about the future possibility of the order being cancelled.

The problem for a maker having a policy about cancellations is concerned is that for it to have any effect there would have to be a deposit or an enforceable contract. If a maker has a rule about not cancelling an order after a certain point and there is no deposit or contract, what can the maker do about it if the order is cancelled after that point? I suppose sticking pins in a doll that represented the customer would be something, but not something that would be of any help in the situation.

Knife orders will be cancelled for a myriad of reasons. Some of them valid and some not. Though in some cases this sucks for the maker, it is something that they will all have to deal with at some point or another.

If you are an ethical person you will know when you are not doing something wrong in cancelling an order. If you would think it was wrong if someone did it to you, then don't do it to the maker.
 
Interesting and great discussion.
As a collector, if I get in line for a knife from some one with a long wait > 1 year or so. I just get in line with hope to disucss the design or type of knife when my name comes up. For me that works well since most of my long waiting time orders are from some pretty versitile makers. I may have a thought when I get on the list that evolves or out right changes when the time comes for the knife to be made.

On the other side of the coin, I do not know many rich (cash wise) makers, so when we get started on a knife with special materials, I prefer to pay those expenses as they are encountered. (It is a good thing not to mess with a maker's (or a friend's) cash flow). :)

If the knife has not been started and no expenduture has been made for materials, I do not think the vast majority of makers would have much of a problem.

One of the things I do enjoy is shaking hands over a knife and having it come to fruition in it's due course. To me it is a very special relationship of trust and I need to do all I can (including homework)to make sure I will be happy with a person's work when I order it so that we are both smiling the next time we see each other.
 
I will admit to having a bit of an "attitude" about this subject.
I think of a custom order no differently from ordering anything else, and that both the buyer and the maker have a responsibility to each other once an agreement is made.
If I place an order, it means I have the money on hand, and set it aside for when it is due. Full-time makers do this for a living, and I respect the time and effort they put into their craft. I think they have the right to expect me to have the money when the knife is ready. No excuses or copouts. We made an agreement. It's their money, and it's my responsibility to come through on my end, regardless of any second thoughts, or other things I decide I want along the way.
They have time and money tied up in the deal, and my problems should not become their problems.
That works both ways...
I have time and money tied up in the deal, too, and enough problems of my own. I don't need anyone else's to add to the list.
If a maker says he will have my knife ready in three months (6 mos, a year, whatever), when that time is up, I expect a knife.
At the same time, there are bigger things in life than a knife.
If something comes up, and a maker contacts me, and asks for more time, because he had problems with his shop, health, family, anything reasonable...fine. I can understand that. Things happen. We've all had setbacks at one point or another in our lives that interfered with our plans.
Other than that, forget it. No knife when it's due, no communication-FORGET it.
Forget I ever ordered a knife, because the maker will never see a penny from me. I work too hard, and too many hours, for someone to play games with my time, or my money.
Again, there are bigger things in life than a knife, and I refuse to get stressed out over someone jerking me around, or have a simple transaction turn into a long, drawn out ordeal over a simple knife that I don't even need to begin with.
It's real simple, IMO. I keep my word. You keep your word. We're both happy.

btw, I am not a collector, and only order knives I intend to use. Plenty of makers, and plenty of knives out there that will fit my uses. I can definitely understand someone wanting a particular knife, from a particular maker, and being willing to wait however long to get it. That's just not me...
 
I never cancelled an order even though I was close to doing so once. I did not do it just because I supplied some material for the knife and had no use for it - if it was returned to me. I had to send the knife back once (to the maker) and it still arrived with a flaw (IMO) I could not overlook. So I offered it for sale the following day and sold it a few weeks later. Instead of returning the knife I will not deal with the person again - lesson learned.

As for other orders... It takes me months to figure out what I want so once the knife is ordered, I do not change my mind :).

David
 
I ordered a knife where I have been told the wait list is 4 years. Both the maker and I know that's just an estimate, though.

I agree with bastid that if no expenditures are incurred buy makers who have long waits for delivery then there should really be no financial concern for cancellation.

The guys that are in line behind the person who cancels just moves up one in line.

In fact, some of the makers I have dealt with just put your name on the list and don't even want to know what you want until it is your turn. When it's your turn, you can order what you like and as many as you like, within reason of course.

IMO, cancelling would cause no direct loss, resulting from your order, to a maker who hasn't begun your knife order. That said, is it unethical to cancel? In my wildest imagination, I don't see how.
Is it unethical for a maker, with good intentions, not to deliver on time? Again, I just don't see how.

Perhaps this is why most makers don't take deposits so that they are not bound by some arbitrary time line??
 
Here is an example...

Just today, I sent Harvey Dean the money needed for the engraving to be done on my Bowie knife. The engraving will be done on the parts before he puts the knife together. Due to the fact that this work is done by someone other than Mr. Dean, he asked for this progress payment from me. He normally doesn't want money up front.

What if I HAD TO cancel after he made this knife because I lost my job, or whatever, and could not pay for it?
Should I expect to get my engraving money back if in fact he is made whole by selling the knife to someone else?
My belief is no way. I would not think of asking for it back.

Would I take the money from him if he offered to give it back? Not a chance. I know I would feel too embarrassed that I had to cancel a knife he already made even if it was due to some uncontrollable event that caused me to be broke.

Like OwenM said, my problems are my problems not his(I'm paraphrasing).
 
I am with you on the engraving part RWS. No way I would ask for it. Odds are though that the maker would work something out with you when the knife sold, but it would be due to the maker's character that it would happen. To be honest a multi-thousand buck engraving/inlay job, might tempt me to accept an offer. (Just not sure where I would draw the line.)

I think the key to enjoying the whole thing is honesty along the entire route. Things tend to work out easier on everyone when there are no surprises. Usually a maker knows when they are behind, as a collector it is important for me to meet my responsibilities with "disposable income". If I am in a position where that can not happen I need to communicate openly and quickly and try to meet my obligation as best as possible. Maybe the maker is willing to bump a couple or few people in front of me to allow for a little more time.

This honesty thing :) can very much be a two way street. When a knife is going to be late, it does not bother me a bit as long as there are no surprises along the way. When it happens like that over a long period of time, it never fails that I get a great knife that I am happy with years later. The best part is that the new friendships (or the growth of old ones) has always been the result for me when the whole process has been open.

(Too friggin' mushy, shoulda written this with Gus' id :D)).
 
RWS, I am with you all the way. Once I give a deposit, if I back out of the deal for any reason, the deposit belongs to the maker. If the maker were to offer the deposit back, the knife had not been started and no special materials had been purchased, I might just ask if I could leave the deposit and use it in the future, but I would not take it back.
 
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