Codger_64
Moderator
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2004
- Messages
- 62,324
There had been quite a bit of speculation over the years as to which was the first Old Timer made by Schrade Walden Cutlery, which started the long-lasting “family” of Old Timer knives. The 2OT was made in very limited quantities from1959 through 1963 (last 516 knives shipped in 1964). Based upon an earlier Schrade Cut Co. Knife, the #C2202 / #2203, it has a closed length blade of 3-3/8” , 2" pen blade and a 2-5/8” clip master blade, smooth“Meerschaum Bone” covers, and milled brass linings and pins. Each was shipped in a hinged redwood gift box, 5"x2"x1 ½" with an enclosed descriptive printed folder. The box example I have seen appears to be cedar, not redwood as advertised.
According to research done by the historian at Imperial Schrade in 2003, “This was the very first Old Timer model introduced, marking the beginning of the Old Timer line in 1959. It was a sleeveboard pattern with the Washington Bolster and Meerschaum bone handles. It was manufactured until 1963, and it is probably the rarest of the Old Timer knives. During its 5 years of production, there were only 13,149 shipped. If you consider the total quantity, the rare handle material and the fact that it was the very first in a long line of Old Timer knives, you certainly have a rare collector's item, in more ways than one.”
The 2OT was listed in the 1959 Schrade Walden wholesale price sheet at $27.00 per dozen. At $2.25 each wholesale, they were among the most costly knives sold that year. Only the #876 Stainless, Marine Pearl Shadow Lobster with scissors, and the #906 American Army Officer’s Knife with it’s seven blades and appendages cost more.
The origin of the Old Timer line (thus this 2OT) according to this a 1981 interview with Henry Baer by Robert A. Cotner in National Knife Collector Magazine:
The exact name for the pattern is a matter of contention as well. While the historian at Schrade called it a “sleeveboard pattern”, Mr. Levine in his earlier 1985 guide illustrated a Boker of this pattern as an “English Jack”. Mr. A. G. Russell, founder of “The Knife Collector’s Club” recently referred to it as a “Barlow”. Incidentally, Boker was a Schrade customer as late as 1959.
One of the predecessors, the 3 1/16" long #C2533 3/4 SQ was listed in the 1934 catalog with nickle silver “Washington bolsters”, and Bone Stag handles. It had an oval shield, and no text stamped on the rear bolster. A more direct appearing ancestor, or rather ancestors, seem to be a series of jackknives from the earlier 1928 “Catalog E” itself, the #2202 (ebony handle), #2203 (Bone Stag handle), both at 3 ½" long with spear master blade, and #2203 3/4 with a clip blade and Bone Stag. All three used the “Federal” or “bomb” shield, and the name “SCHRADE” stamped across the rear bolsters. The 2OT had a closed length blade of 3-1/2", a 2 ½" clip master blade and a 1-7/8” pen blade. The tang stamp is SCHRADE / WALDEN / N.Y. U.S.A. on the mark side, and 2OT on the pile side of the master clip blade. The pen blade is unmarked.
A Craftsman version was made for Sears & Roebuck in 1959, identical to the standard Schrade version of the 2OT, except for the addition of an oval Craftsman shield in the mark side handle. The Sears #9530 Craftsman version of the 2OT is a bit more scarce than the standard Schrade, 780 pieces produced and shipped only in 1959. This was the only SFO use of the 2OT pattern that I am aware of. I have not yet seen the Sears 2OT box, but suspect that it is probably the same as the standard Schrade Walden. While Schrade Walden records show the Sears stock number, #9530, it does not appear on the knife. Searches have not revealed evidence of the 2OT Sleeveboard bing produced for any other retail customer, Coast Cutlery Company and Belknap Hardware being the other two large Schrade accounts at the time. Boker is a possibility.
A collector has stated (and shown examples from his collection) that several prototypes were made in jigged bone, some with Federal shields, but these never reached production. The same collector reported that there was a subsequent reissue of the 2OT sometime around 1969-70, but factory production records fail at this time to corroborate this assertion, and no dated catalog or advertising materials, or verifiable example of the knife have yet surfaced to my knowledge.
A variant of the 2OT (Pattern #126/127), the 3OT (#181/183) was also listed in 1959's production report, but only as a quantity ordered, with none shipped and none in stock at year’s end. They were listed again in 1960, but again, none shipped and none in stock. Herman Williams is quoted by a collector who spoke with him as saying that by his memory, fewer than a dozen were made, while Sargent’s book says twenty four or so samples were made. I’ve only seen one so far, and supposedly it is traced back to Mr. Williams donation to the Schrade factory display. It resides today in a collection in Australia along with the 2OT also from the factory collection. The 3OT differs from the 2OT only in that it has a sheepfoot master blade in place of the standard clip master blade on the 2OT. The 3OT sheepfoot blade has a small nick, whereas the 2OT has a 1-1/8" long “French” nick for opening.
Today these knives appear infrequently on the collector’s market, and when they do, they bring a premium. With collector interest in the Old Timer knives (and Schrade Cut Co, Schrade Walden, and Schrade Cutlery knives in general) increasing after the 2004 closure of the Imperial Schrade Corporation, it is my opinion that retail values of the 2OT will be hard to fix for quite some time. Condition is of primary concern to many collectors, so bargains can sometimes be found for knives in less than mint or near mint condition. In Jim Sargent’s 1986 American Premium Guide To Pocket Knives, he illustrates the 2OT and gives a value of $100. This is, however, twenty years old at this time. A subsequent issue of Sargent’s guide illustrated the Craftsman 2OT and valued it 50% more than the standard 2OT, $150. It will be interesting to see how the upcoming Bruce Voyles price guide (to be introduced at this year’s S.H.O.T. show) values them.
An interesting question arises as to why the 3OT sheepfoot version was not produced beyond the initial quantity of salesman’s samples. While only the former company production manager could give a definitive answer, here is my opinion. Money. The Imperial Knife Associated Companies were in business to make a profit. They did so by capturing market shares with products in every category and price range. When a pattern failed to sell in sufficient numbers, it was dropped from the lineup. Knives with sheepfoot master blades, while unique and popular with today’s collectors, were not very popular in the early 1960's. Sears, the only retailer to buy a quantity of the new 2OT, either failed to order any of the 3OT variant, or were the only ones to do so. At any rate, during the year 1959, the salesmen armed with the literature and samples failed to solicit more than 500 or so pieces ordered. While the 2OT received a somewhat more enthusiastic 5,000 pieces ordered (including the Sears Craftsman order). The 2OT was in fact itself a failure in marketing. While it did serve as a flagship for the newly created Old Timer line, it’s five years of production only netted about 18,000 pieces sold total. That is an average of 3,600 a year, hardly profitable for material acquisition, die stamping, assembly set up, packaging and marketing.
To illustrate the lack of popularity of the sheepfoot as a master blade during the early 1960's, we might look briefly at the lower priced Old Timers introduced concurrently with the end of the 2OT, the Ulster 10OT (1964-72) and 12OT (1964-66). Based upon previous designs, the Ulster #10 Barlow (Clip blade) and the Ulster #12 (Sheepfoot blade), the OT Barlows were much cheaper to produce, and lower retail priced. In it’s first production year the 10OT sold nearly 10,000 pieces while the 12OT sold only about 1,500. Over the three year period during which both were produced, the 10OT averaged 11,750 pieces a year, selling approximately 35,500 pieces. The less popular 12OT sheepfoot only sold about 3,000 pieces and was dropped from the line after the 1966 production year. The more popular 10OT continued for quite a few years, eventually reaching annual production in excess of 40, 000 pieces by 1972. (I’ve not yet researched the pattern beyond 1972) All three of the base Ulster Barlow patterns were continued for some time, however. Did I say three? Yes, the #10 was a clip, #11 was a spear (not used as an OT) and the #12 was the sheepfoot.
I was lucky enough to recently acquire an example of the Sears #9530 Craftsman version of the 2OT, but don't yet have an example of the 2OT. Since the only difference is the addition of the Craftsman oval shield, I am content to wait for the more common Schrade 2OT to come along at a reasonable price.
Codger
According to research done by the historian at Imperial Schrade in 2003, “This was the very first Old Timer model introduced, marking the beginning of the Old Timer line in 1959. It was a sleeveboard pattern with the Washington Bolster and Meerschaum bone handles. It was manufactured until 1963, and it is probably the rarest of the Old Timer knives. During its 5 years of production, there were only 13,149 shipped. If you consider the total quantity, the rare handle material and the fact that it was the very first in a long line of Old Timer knives, you certainly have a rare collector's item, in more ways than one.”
The 2OT was listed in the 1959 Schrade Walden wholesale price sheet at $27.00 per dozen. At $2.25 each wholesale, they were among the most costly knives sold that year. Only the #876 Stainless, Marine Pearl Shadow Lobster with scissors, and the #906 American Army Officer’s Knife with it’s seven blades and appendages cost more.
The origin of the Old Timer line (thus this 2OT) according to this a 1981 interview with Henry Baer by Robert A. Cotner in National Knife Collector Magazine:
The exact name for the pattern is a matter of contention as well. While the historian at Schrade called it a “sleeveboard pattern”, Mr. Levine in his earlier 1985 guide illustrated a Boker of this pattern as an “English Jack”. Mr. A. G. Russell, founder of “The Knife Collector’s Club” recently referred to it as a “Barlow”. Incidentally, Boker was a Schrade customer as late as 1959.
One of the predecessors, the 3 1/16" long #C2533 3/4 SQ was listed in the 1934 catalog with nickle silver “Washington bolsters”, and Bone Stag handles. It had an oval shield, and no text stamped on the rear bolster. A more direct appearing ancestor, or rather ancestors, seem to be a series of jackknives from the earlier 1928 “Catalog E” itself, the #2202 (ebony handle), #2203 (Bone Stag handle), both at 3 ½" long with spear master blade, and #2203 3/4 with a clip blade and Bone Stag. All three used the “Federal” or “bomb” shield, and the name “SCHRADE” stamped across the rear bolsters. The 2OT had a closed length blade of 3-1/2", a 2 ½" clip master blade and a 1-7/8” pen blade. The tang stamp is SCHRADE / WALDEN / N.Y. U.S.A. on the mark side, and 2OT on the pile side of the master clip blade. The pen blade is unmarked.
A Craftsman version was made for Sears & Roebuck in 1959, identical to the standard Schrade version of the 2OT, except for the addition of an oval Craftsman shield in the mark side handle. The Sears #9530 Craftsman version of the 2OT is a bit more scarce than the standard Schrade, 780 pieces produced and shipped only in 1959. This was the only SFO use of the 2OT pattern that I am aware of. I have not yet seen the Sears 2OT box, but suspect that it is probably the same as the standard Schrade Walden. While Schrade Walden records show the Sears stock number, #9530, it does not appear on the knife. Searches have not revealed evidence of the 2OT Sleeveboard bing produced for any other retail customer, Coast Cutlery Company and Belknap Hardware being the other two large Schrade accounts at the time. Boker is a possibility.
A collector has stated (and shown examples from his collection) that several prototypes were made in jigged bone, some with Federal shields, but these never reached production. The same collector reported that there was a subsequent reissue of the 2OT sometime around 1969-70, but factory production records fail at this time to corroborate this assertion, and no dated catalog or advertising materials, or verifiable example of the knife have yet surfaced to my knowledge.
A variant of the 2OT (Pattern #126/127), the 3OT (#181/183) was also listed in 1959's production report, but only as a quantity ordered, with none shipped and none in stock at year’s end. They were listed again in 1960, but again, none shipped and none in stock. Herman Williams is quoted by a collector who spoke with him as saying that by his memory, fewer than a dozen were made, while Sargent’s book says twenty four or so samples were made. I’ve only seen one so far, and supposedly it is traced back to Mr. Williams donation to the Schrade factory display. It resides today in a collection in Australia along with the 2OT also from the factory collection. The 3OT differs from the 2OT only in that it has a sheepfoot master blade in place of the standard clip master blade on the 2OT. The 3OT sheepfoot blade has a small nick, whereas the 2OT has a 1-1/8" long “French” nick for opening.
Today these knives appear infrequently on the collector’s market, and when they do, they bring a premium. With collector interest in the Old Timer knives (and Schrade Cut Co, Schrade Walden, and Schrade Cutlery knives in general) increasing after the 2004 closure of the Imperial Schrade Corporation, it is my opinion that retail values of the 2OT will be hard to fix for quite some time. Condition is of primary concern to many collectors, so bargains can sometimes be found for knives in less than mint or near mint condition. In Jim Sargent’s 1986 American Premium Guide To Pocket Knives, he illustrates the 2OT and gives a value of $100. This is, however, twenty years old at this time. A subsequent issue of Sargent’s guide illustrated the Craftsman 2OT and valued it 50% more than the standard 2OT, $150. It will be interesting to see how the upcoming Bruce Voyles price guide (to be introduced at this year’s S.H.O.T. show) values them.
An interesting question arises as to why the 3OT sheepfoot version was not produced beyond the initial quantity of salesman’s samples. While only the former company production manager could give a definitive answer, here is my opinion. Money. The Imperial Knife Associated Companies were in business to make a profit. They did so by capturing market shares with products in every category and price range. When a pattern failed to sell in sufficient numbers, it was dropped from the lineup. Knives with sheepfoot master blades, while unique and popular with today’s collectors, were not very popular in the early 1960's. Sears, the only retailer to buy a quantity of the new 2OT, either failed to order any of the 3OT variant, or were the only ones to do so. At any rate, during the year 1959, the salesmen armed with the literature and samples failed to solicit more than 500 or so pieces ordered. While the 2OT received a somewhat more enthusiastic 5,000 pieces ordered (including the Sears Craftsman order). The 2OT was in fact itself a failure in marketing. While it did serve as a flagship for the newly created Old Timer line, it’s five years of production only netted about 18,000 pieces sold total. That is an average of 3,600 a year, hardly profitable for material acquisition, die stamping, assembly set up, packaging and marketing.
To illustrate the lack of popularity of the sheepfoot as a master blade during the early 1960's, we might look briefly at the lower priced Old Timers introduced concurrently with the end of the 2OT, the Ulster 10OT (1964-72) and 12OT (1964-66). Based upon previous designs, the Ulster #10 Barlow (Clip blade) and the Ulster #12 (Sheepfoot blade), the OT Barlows were much cheaper to produce, and lower retail priced. In it’s first production year the 10OT sold nearly 10,000 pieces while the 12OT sold only about 1,500. Over the three year period during which both were produced, the 10OT averaged 11,750 pieces a year, selling approximately 35,500 pieces. The less popular 12OT sheepfoot only sold about 3,000 pieces and was dropped from the line after the 1966 production year. The more popular 10OT continued for quite a few years, eventually reaching annual production in excess of 40, 000 pieces by 1972. (I’ve not yet researched the pattern beyond 1972) All three of the base Ulster Barlow patterns were continued for some time, however. Did I say three? Yes, the #10 was a clip, #11 was a spear (not used as an OT) and the #12 was the sheepfoot.
I was lucky enough to recently acquire an example of the Sears #9530 Craftsman version of the 2OT, but don't yet have an example of the 2OT. Since the only difference is the addition of the Craftsman oval shield, I am content to wait for the more common Schrade 2OT to come along at a reasonable price.
Codger
. It's really a shame that such a beautiful knife didn't catch on. I guess at the time function and price were more important than looks for most folks who viewed knives more as tools than we do today. Sure would be nice to have a dozen at 27 bucks though! I wonder what that is in todays dollar amount.
