When Old Timers Were New Timers - Schrade 2OT & 3OT

[lrv]

Hey Codger,
What did you do with that extra 1-OT?
Sword and Shield is looking for one.

I have a 4-OT hidden away for my retirement along with the original Bowie.

The 2 and 8OT are 2 of the very few we actually have release dates for.
They announced them at the annual sales conventions. Not a major hoopla but a paragraph or two.

 

[thawk]

I will break out my 61UH pictures soon. I found 6 them in a European Knife Shop on the Internet. They are all new in the brown boxes. The shipping notice indicated they will arrive 2 weeks from tomorrow.

 

[Larry303]

G'Day Thawk.....are you pulling the pud or what? Do you mean 61OT? I thought I had at least one of contemporary Schrade everything, but I dont have a 61UH!
Lrv...I know where there is a single Mint 1 OT and have seen a photo of it and wont say anymore until I actually have it!!Hoo Roo

 

[thawk]

Probably not a fair joke for Down Under. April 1 (two weeks from tomorrow) is a well known holiday in the US for practical jokes. It is called April Fools Day. Just joining in on the 4OT fun.

 

[gradall5200]

I was always hoping we would get the for sale/ trade area going for the collectors knives in hopes to trade my green Kious away for a 2 or 3ot. Im not holding my breath on either.- Joel

 

[Codger_64]

G'Day, Not all 2OT Old Timers are presented on Ebay as such so as you say Ostroker you have to think outside the square and if you have the knowledge of what you're looking for you can still find reasonable deals. I bought my 5th 2OT/3OT today and like the last couple have been listed under "Other Brands" with no mention whatsoever of 2OT.Item 370030939900 sold for $126 and was described as a Barlow while another Mint 2OT went at the same time properly described and fetched US$660.! Seller told me in private email my knife is perfect excepting a previous small professional patch in the Meerschaum Bone..hmmm we'll see but at that money for a scarce knife its a reasonable risk IMHO. I will line them all up in those Old Timer boxes with the old Old Timer bling and post a photo. Hoo Roo

G'day Larry. I've decided to buy two of your 2OT's, seeing as how you are overstocked. WIll you take checks?

Codger

 

[Larry303]

...I notice that cheque is drawn by Schrade Group Dental Plan.......Was it true your teeth were alright it was your gums they had to remove???Looking at the dates they were drawn in August and October 2004 respectively..I would have thought you would have been on a hiding to nothing to accept a Schrade cheque <check> at that time....certainly would have left a bad bicuspeth for some poor devil receiving a dud check at that critical time....
Who said I was overstocked with 5, 2OT's ..how many is too many?? I feel another one coming on....
Reminds me of a leading Race Horse Trainer here in Oz .The Health Inspector said he had TOO many flies buzzing around his horse stables..his reply...Oh ,so just how many am I allowed to have??
Codger I will remember you in my Will mate....... you can keep your checks....Hoo Roo

 

[Codger_64]

Well, it was worth a try. I mean, any Schrade nut who would denut his roo and send you the tanned sack (very well done, by the way) isn't all bad. Um... I have some Camillus Cutlery checks and...

Michael

 

[Codger_64]

In the papers archived from the 1958 annual sales meeting of the Imperial Knives Associated Companies held December 15th, 1958 at the Sheraton Biltmore Hotel is a short paragraph announcing the 2OT.

In these papers handed out to the salesmen of the various divisions, the section on the Schrade Walden line is quite interesting. It begins with the discussion of slow deliveries during the past year due to the move into the new factory in Ellenville.

It was announced that the only price increase in existing lines will be for the H-15 hunting knife. As a measure to hold down price increases, 30 slow moving patterns would be discontinued. They would still be available as special orders, but at a minimum order of 300 dozen or more.

It was further announced that hand-stagged plastic covers will be discontinued and only genuine bone will be used for stagged Schrade Walden handles. Plastic will be reserved for smooth handles.

And then we come to the &#8220;What&#8217;s New&#8221; section for Schrade Walden.

So much for the regular Schrade-Walden line, but the answer to the query -- &#8220;What&#8217;s new?&#8221; -- is a knife made like the knife Grand-dad had -- we call it the &#8220;Old Timer&#8221;!

Schrade-Walden&#8217;s &#8220;Old Timer&#8221; has Romance built into it -- &#8220;A knife Grand-dad had&#8221; -- its an idea to bring utility Pocket Knives back into the gift field.

We reached back into the old files to find a pattern with the greatest utility -- one that was comfortable to hold that would be practical for whittling, carving, husky enough to stand rough treatment by the gardener or handyman, and yet be interesting to the executive. This sleeve-board pattern with Washington Bolster and meerschaum bone handle was selected, and so we established a separate &#8220;Old Timer Department&#8221; where the &#8220;fine cutlers&#8221; specialize on the finest of all knives.

If we offer it to a few choice accounts, they would probably want it exclusively, as it&#8217;s a perfect gift for Father&#8217;s Day, a birthday, or Christmas for &#8220;The man of the house&#8221;. Only a limited number can be made, and for that reason we have set up quotas based upon the sales of Schrade-Walden by territories.

The red cedar gift box -- the parchment brochure -- the woodgrain platform, and the $5.00 black and gold price sticker all make this package a profitable one:
Jobber&#8217;s Cost: $2.25 each
Jobber&#8217;s Profit: .75
Dealer&#8217;s Cost: $3.00
Dealer&#8217;s Profit: $2.00
Retail: $5.00

The first offering is made with free salesman samples to the jobber, when he buys one dozen back-up stock, he gets on free &#8220;Old Timer&#8221;! with every one dozen purchased.

It was scheduled to be available March 1st, 1959. As well as identifying exactly what their marketing target was for the new 2OT "Old Timer", this settles, at least for me, what Schrade called the pattern, regardless of what modern collectors might choose to call it. And as we might discern from the production figures showing the length of production and quantities made, it was essentially a marketing dud. For me, the lack of a reorder after the initial one in 1959 by Sears confirms this.

Michael

 

[rprocter]

odd that it would be a marketing dud. i don't have one, but it certainly looks like a very sturdy, useful EDC knife.
i wonder what styles of knife people were buying in late '50s.
roland

 

[Codger_64]

Jackmasters were the top sellers in the late 1950's. Not that many people were willing to give $5 for a two bladed knife when they could get a three bladed Jackmaster stockman for $1.25 or less. $5 in 1959 was the equivilent of $32.50 today. $1.25 in 1959 dollars equals $8.80 in 2008 dollars. Plus, plastics were seen as the wave of the future then, actually better than that old cow shinbone.

 

[Larry303]

Its interesting that in the first post page 1 in this highly informative thread that Codger quotes a Schrade historian as stating the 2OT in 1959 had Washington bolsters and MEERSCHAUM BONE HANDLES...this was of course some years before the marketing ploy Meeschaum bone plastic was used approx 1965/66.....
As Meerschaum is actually brittle DE being the minute ancient sea creature skeletons which is the powder used in the old swimming pool filters...and as with Meerschaum smoking pipes can be moulded and colored....I believe to suggest that Schrade only first used the term Meerschaum to describe their new fangled plastic/delrin/staglon in the mid 60's is incorrect....
Might have been a clever marketing ploy by old Albert and Henry to call the first Old Timers from 1959 Meerschaum Bone but it would appear they did use the term which does not sit comfortably with the statement Schrade used Meerschaum only to describe" Meerschaum bone plastic"..it may well still relate to the coloring used on their bovine bone handles on the first Old Timers from 1959/60 being the 2OT,3OT and 8OT etc.....and the same coloring used on the plastic delrin handles they introduced later....jury is still out for me....Hoo Roo

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

Its interesting that in the first post page 1 in this highly informative thread that Codger quotes a Schrade historian as stating the 2OT in 1959 had Washington bolsters and MEERSCHAUM BONE HANDLES...this was of course some years before the marketing ploy Meeschaum bone plastic was used approx 1965/66.....
As Meerschaum is actually brittle DE being the minute ancient sea creature skeletons which is the powder used in the old swimming pool filters...and as with Meerschaum smoking pipes can be moulded and colored....I believe to suggest that Schrade only first used the term Meerschaum to describe their new fangled plastic/delrin/staglon in the mid 60's is incorrect....
Might have been a clever marketing ploy by old Albert and Henry to call the first Old Timers from 1959 Meerschaum Bone but it would appear they did use the term which does not sit comfortably with the statement Schrade used Meerschaum only to describe" Meerschaum bone plastic"..it may well still relate to the coloring used on their bovine bone handles on the first Old Timers from 1959/60 being the 2OT,3OT and 8OT etc.....and the same coloring used on the plastic delrin handles they introduced later....jury is still out for me....Hoo Roo

You may be right Larry. The point I was trying to illustrate was that by 1965 Meerschaum Bone meant dyed delrin. I was only speaking to that time period. What it must have meant in 1959 was different as shown by the 2OT example.

Schrade might well have used the term more to describe the colour than the material itself. I don't see why they didn't call it "Genuine Bone" or "Antique Bone" etc. because these would have been more accurate and still highly marketable but just because it's beyond me, it doesn't make it untrue necessarily.

Here's an out-of-the-box suggestion which is only half a joke:
Maybe the early 1959 proto-types were just thrown in a spittoon for their dye-job and that's the connection between true coloured Meerschaum and coloured bone. Perhaps somebody at Schrade saw true Meerschaum pipes and thought to use tobacco as a way to dye bone a nice colour.

I know this is a somewhat bizarre theory but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[Larry303]

Pipe smoking was very popular back in the late 50's early 60's and I can remember my late Dad with his proud array of Meerschaum pipes....my Dad was also very much an edged item appreciator after 37 years in the Australian Infantry...so the word Meerschaum would have been a great marketing term at that time to that demographic group of potential Old Timer Buyers.....Schrade did refer also to "genuine bone handles" on their early Old Timer lineup....if long time knife users expected their handles to be bone and Schrade wanted them to accept the new fangled plastic/delrin/staglon which was more cost effective for Schrade and definately more reliable to work with, and obtain supply...then what better way than to introduce the new "stuff" as Meerschaum bone plastic.....Albert was the best in the business at marketing and its why Schrade was no longer the best in the business after his demise...IMO.and just my thoughts...Hoo Roo