Where are going the Knives collection world? An ethical question.

V

vecio

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May 2, 2011
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Dear collector friends, discovering on a famous dealer's site, a Loveless Fighter to sale for 29 k, featuring engraving work by Firmo Fracassi, I've thought the knives world need more trustfulness and honesty of intents to survive !
The facts : Fracassi did originally engrave only the escutscheon, writing " The first knife of 2001 ".
The piece came out from an italian collection and was sold in US several years later. Now it emerge engraved also on the guard with doubtful result !
Is this fair ?
Would you buy it ?
This is the hard reality but that don't damage our collection world ?
 
With or without the engraving issues you raise, the pricing of $29,000 for that knife is obscene (IMHO). The knife just doesn't seem to rise to that level of value on ANY account. Of course, that brings up the entire issue of the pricing of Loveless knives, which I will leave as an issue upon which others might wish to comment.

Best regards,

Bob Betzner
 
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This doesn't sound like the usual, mindless, boring, gettin'-to-know-you chitchat.

Though I am not sure how many comments you will get about this in this forum. I think some folks could not tell you the difference between Fracassi and Fricassee.

I have seen pictures of the knife in question.

Sounds like maybe (?) you are suggesting that maybe Fracassi did not engrave the guard. Do you know that for a fact or is it an educated guess? I believe that Fracassi is one of the greatest living knife engravers with few peers. But as for that picture of Bob Loveless on one side of the guard . . . well, IMO it is not one of his finest moments.
 
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Good post Ken, I like the opening sentence with it's reference to Pulp Fiction...

One thing to remember before someone shoots at Michael is that he works with info given to him buy consignees.. That includes pricing...

We will know soon I'm sure... It's a rank amateur move if someone is trying to misrepresent.. At $29k it better be what it is stated to be... Rich Slaughter
 
rbslaughter1 said:
One thing to remember before someone shoots at Michael is that he works with info given to him buy consignees.. That includes pricing...
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self-evident to anyone who knows anything about dealer pricing
 
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Michael enjoys a fine reputation and I do not believe he would knowingly participate in deceit. As to pricing, I agree with those before me. The owner or former owner has much to do with that.

Paul
 
Hope this finds everyone well. Thanks for bringing this to a public forum. Honesty and Integrity are the core foundations of any collectible market. The knife was originally engraved by Fracassi on the escutcheon only.

The American collector who purchased the knife, had Fracassi engrave the guards and pins of the knife to complete it. KnifePurveyor.com is now offering it for sale.

Please feel free to contact Fracassi directly regarding this knife.

I look forward to fulfilling your custom knife needs. Thanks and be well.
 
Michael A. Donato said:
Hope this finds everyone well. Thanks for bringing this to a public forum. Honesty and Integrity are the core foundations of any collectible market. The knife was originally engraved by Fracassi on the escutcheon only.

The American collector who purchased the knife, had Fracassi engrave the guards and pins of the knife to complete it. KnifePurveyor.com is now offering it for sale.

Please feel free to contact Fracassi directly regarding this knife.

I look forward to fulfilling your custom knife needs. Thanks and be well.
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Thanks for posting, Michael. Your integrity is of course beyond approach. Personally, I hope the OP comes back here and explains his post.
 
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The Virginian said:
This doesn't sound like the usual, mindless, boring, gettin'-to-know-you chitchat.

Though I am not sure how many comments you will get about this in this forum. I think some folks could not tell you the difference between Fracassi and Fricassee.

I have seen pictures of the knife in question.

Sounds like maybe (?) you are suggesting that maybe Fracassi did not engrave the guard. Do you know that for a fact or is it an educated guess? I believe that Fracassi is one of the greatest living knife engravers with few peers. But as for that picture of Bob Loveless on one side of the guard . . . well, IMO it is not one of his finest moments.
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Dear friends, I didn't want to say Fracassi is not the engraver , he is the best bulino engraver at all, also I agree this work don't seem to be the finest one.. but my doubt was focused on this routine that an old knife will be later engraved to rise the worth and sold without any comment.

Is the collector stupid ? He doesn't need more respect ? Will a nineteenth century noble watch, feauturing a new fine engraving, be sold by Sotheby's without any mention ?

Regards
 
I'm not sure I understand. If the guy engraved it once and then engraved it again later, it's still a knife engraved by ONE person. Why does the timeline matter?

We're not dealing with a 100+yr old watch engraved by someone new. Maybe the collector found out who did the original engraving and realizing that it was previously engraved the by a top engraver, wanted something a little more indicative of his work.



If I buy a base Shelby Mustang (GT500) and then later decide to send the car to Shelby to have them do a lot more work to it, does it somehow change it from being a Shelby Mustang?
 
I think I see the OP's point, and a lot of it has to do with what is important to you....

Agree that for full disclosure a timeline should be stated as clearly as possible...

Is it more important to have a knife engraved and scrimmed or whatnot in the plan of the maker, as a collaboration?

Is the finished result more important?

There are knives that were even engraved BY the maker, and then you have the pieces that were done afterwards...

To simply say "engraved by....." is less powerful and informative than putting a timeline in the writeup.

Make sense?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
If I were going to spend 29K on any knife I'd research it before buying it. Maybe there are guys out there willing to spend without doing their due diligence, what does it matter, it's their money. As long as Michael isn't saying the knife is something it isn't I don't see a problem. Both Christies and Sotheby's have been putting questionable watches in their auction catalogs for awhile now. Buyer beware. About the knife, very unattractive to put it mildly, I know that's supposed to be Loveless engraved on it but it looks like Babe Ruth, maybe Fracassi has a sense of humor. Knife and engraving definitely not a home run.
Also regarding ethics here is a question regarding what a purveyor says in his description. Steinau doesn't sharpen his blades, should the purveyor of one of his secondary market knives (there's one for sale online now) have to state the knife is unsharpened? Would doing so hurt the value? Does the collector buyer even care? Or, how about a knife that's had a spa treatment or refurb done by the original maker? Necessary to say so in the for sale description, or again, is it up to the buyer to ask questions.
 
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martinr said:
If I were going to spend 29K on any knife I'd research it before buying it. Maybe there are guys out there willing to spend without doing their due diligence, what does it matter, it's their money. As long as Michael isn't saying the knife is something it isn't I don't see a problem. Both Christies and Sotheby's have been putting questionable watches in their auction catalogs for awhile now. Buyer beware. About the knife, very unattractive to put it mildly, I know that's supposed to be Loveless engraved on it but it looks like Babe Ruth, maybe Fracassi has a sense of humor. Knife and engraving definitely not a home run.
Also regarding ethics here is a question regarding what a purveyor says in his description. Steinau doesn't sharpen his blades, should the purveyor of one of his secondary market knives (there's one for sale online now) have to state the knife is unsharpened? Would doing so hurt the value? Does the collector buyer even care? Or, how about a knife that's had a spa treatment or refurb done by the original maker? Necessary to say so in the for sale description, or again, is it up to the buyer to ask questions.
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Well said Martin, and pretty much my view as well.
In the nutshell, if a knife has had additional engraving done by the original engraver or has been altered or refurbished by the maker, I don't see an issue as it doesn't effect value IMO.
On the other hand, if the knife has been engraved by another engraver or altered by other than the original maker then it needs to be fully disclosed, as it can significantly effect value.

Additionally, I feel any alterations performed by a collector/owner should be disclosed as well as this can effect value.
 
Michael's honesty and integrity are not in question. The OP's smarmy attempt to suggest otherwise suggests a serious lack of judgment, IMO.
 
RogerP said:
Michael's honesty and integrity are not in question. The OP's smarmy attempt to suggest otherwise suggests a serious lack of judgment, IMO.
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No my friend, I'm not smarmy attempt to suggest .... I don't know guys, if you are well spending 10-20 k for a piece whitout know the whole history to have the feeling to pick a little bit of the soul from the maker or engraver doing a project, it's ok . Anyway the knives collecting world so will remain second step.
 
Kohai999 said:
I think I see the OP's point, and a lot of it has to do with what is important to you....

Agree that for full disclosure a timeline should be stated as clearly as possible...

Is it more important to have a knife engraved and scrimmed or whatnot in the plan of the maker, as a collaboration?

Is the finished result more important?

There are knives that were even engraved BY the maker, and then you have the pieces that were done afterwards...

To simply say "engraved by....." is less powerful and informative than putting a timeline in the writeup.

Make sense?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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That is all fine. More information is usually better.

But the OP used words like "ethical," "truthfulness," "honesty," and "damage."

Personally, I do not find those words applicable . . . or even appropriate. YMMV.
 
The Virginian said:
That is all fine. More information is usually better.

But the OP used words like "ethical," "truthfulness," "honesty," and "damage."

Personally, I do not find those words applicable . . . or even appropriate. YMMV.
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OK, you are right perhaps that all are not appropriate terms; my motherlanguage is not english .. but don't reduce the whole as a form .. substance above form.
 
The Virginian said:
That is all fine. More information is usually better.

But the OP used words like "ethical," "truthfulness," "honesty," and "damage."

Personally, I do not find those words applicable . . . or even appropriate. YMMV.
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The OP's mother tongue is not English, and he did a better job of posting the subtleties of his thoughts than I would in Italian....maybe cut him some slack?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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