Where did I go wrong, and can it be fixed?

M

mtodriscoll

Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
17
I'm working on my first knife:
- Drop point blade made from an old circular saw blade, cut for hidden tang
- Handle comprised of "sandwhiched" layers of:
- Brass guard | walnut | copper spacer | elk antler | copper spacer | walnut | brass pommel

Brass guard was soldered on using silver solder.

Using a 50 minute 2-part epoxy (Loc-Tite), I assembled the pieces one at a time, using epoxy to fill in the gaps aroung the tang and also spreading epoxy between the blocks/spacers. I then compressed the handle using a jig.

I let it dry for a few days and then sanded the handle to shape last night on the spindle sander. It looked amazing. I was really pleased. I brought the knife inside overnight (air conditioned house). My shop is outside and not conditioned (so it can get warm/humid) (I live in mid-Virginia area)

Today, I'm noticing small "hairline" gaps between the brass and the wood, the antler and the copper, etc. I'm not really concerned that my handle will come apart, but the final appearance of the handle will suffer with those gaps there.

This will be a working knife, not a show piece, so it's no too important that it be perfect. But I spent enough time on it that I'd like it to look nice... I have not yet applied a finish to the wood. I was thinking of Danish Oil on the wood and Renaissance Wax on the whole thing once the final coat of oil was dry.

So my questions are:
1) Where did I go wrong?
2) Is there anything I can do to fix the gaps?

I suspect the change in humidty did me in. Perhaps when the knife gets back outside it will swell the gaps closed?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt O'Driscoll
Ruckersville, VA
 
Matt, did you have the brass and copper spacers clean and scuffed ? I've had problems with both when I didn't have them sanded to a coarse(80 grit) finish.
 
I cleaned all handle pieces with acetone where they would meet the epoxy. I scratched the brass with a file, but it was still relatively smooth prior to the epoxy. I tried scuffing the copper, but maybe they weren't ruffed up enough.

Odd thing is, I also got separation on the antler side and it was real rough and scratchy. I did coat/soak the pithy area of the antler with clear super glue... Maybe super glue and epoxy don't play nice together...(?)

Oh - yeah, the brass pommel on the end was screwed into the block with a small brass screw, and then had some J-B Weld between the brass and the wood. Looks like the J-B weld separated worse than the epoxy...

Here are some pics showing the knife and its "problem areas".

IMG_2858.jpg

IMG_2864.jpg

IMG_2865.jpg

IMG_2868.jpg



Thanks for any help/advice,
Matt O'Driscoll
Ruckersville, VA
 
Could be...does appear to mainly be an issue around the antler.

I think I was a bit ambitious for the first go out of the gate. :) I probably should have used stabilized antler. Next time I'll stick with solid walnut until I get more experience.

While the knife will be used, it will be strictly be used as part of my Civil War reenactor gear (about 30 days a year). The wood was from a chunk of walnut firewood at my first Cedar Creek event in Middletown, VA - so it's more a sentimental, personal/commemorative piece.

Should I even try to fix the gaps? (maybe by filling in with some color-matching epoxy). Or should I just let it go and chalk it up to experience?

Thanks again for the advice.
Matt
 
Air conditioning is very bad for wood, antler, horn, bone, ivory, and most other natural materials. It dries them out, and they shrink. To combat this, your natural materials need to be aclimated, pre-shrunk so to speak, before any assembly. Or your finished product needs to be left out of the AC environment. Years ago, I would put my knives in a local gunshop, on consignment, and believe it or not, I even had micarta shrink if the knife stayed there too long, and I'm talking Westhouse Micarta. AC, and whaever heat you have in winter, will shrink these materials. You need to store them in an air tight container, if you bring them inside, and they should go in the container outside, then bring them in.
 
Well as my mentor says "if your going to fix a problem, make it look like you intended to do it that way". How about this: cut a groove in the material that has the gap. Then either fill it with coloured epoxy or wood filler.
People have told me that crazy glue on horn and bone makes a good sealer, I have not yet tried it.
I like your knife, even with the tiny issue. If some wise ass says anything, tell them that Civil war era weaponry had even bigger cracks.

Good Knife.
 
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"your natural materials need to be aclimated, pre-shrunk so to speak, before any assembly"

So basically, if you intend to take the knife into an A/C environment, you have to acclimate and construct in an A/C environement? Does that mean swelling from humidity is less of a problem?

...Hmmm, air conditioned shop - I like the sound of that. :)

Just curious so I don't make the same mistake(s) again.

I may just leave it as-is. Filling the cracks may come off looking more sloppy than the original crack did. There are other nits I could make on the knife (sanding marks, pits in blade from orignal saw blade it came from, etc) - but overall I still like the way it came out.

Thanks,
Matt
 
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Over all a pretty nice blade. Looks like shrinkage of the walnut,Ihave had similar problems with walnut and now have all mine stabized by wssi.Walnut, maple, Red Oak will give you fits with shrinkage. Better to bring them into the A/C about a week before you use them.They will swell a little when taken out into the humidity but does not cause the problems shrinkage does.
 
Thanks. Will remember A/C acclimate next time. I had thought about it, but acclimated to the shop, rather than the house. I didn't think far enough ahead to the shrinkage part.

Oh well, that's how we learn. :)

I never would have even thought to attempt a multi-material handle until I started reading this forum. Lots of good advice and friendly members. Thanks for all the help you guys have been.

Matt
 
Pretty impressive first knife! I have found through -tangs to be the toughest to build.
 
Matt

colored epoxy can fill the gaps, heat it with a heat gun and it gets watter thin, for only minute or two, so don't heat more than you can apply in that period of time.

Chair-Lock is a product which can be applied to wood, which makes it swell and stay that way. I have never used it but it might be worth a try.

I have used Neetsfoot oil on rosewood grips which a client ran through the dish washer, it did a respectable job of reconditioning it.

I would go with the colored epoxy.

Jim Arbuckle JS ABS

(another Virginia knife maker)
 
OK, here's another pitch for Brownell's AcraGlas Gel. I've done a lot of stacked hidden tang handles and have never had anything separate or pop loose.
One experience convinced me of just how good the 'glas really is. I made an L6 skinner with a stacked handle of unstabilized Osage orange, brass, deer antler,and 99.99 silver. There was a lot of spacers and sections that went into that handle that was 'glassed together with hidden pins running lengthwise through the sections. It was the first knife I sold, by the way.
The fella that bought the knife gave it to his brother as a gift. The brother promptly gutted a deer with the knife, sheathed it in the handmade leather sheth, and tossed the slimed and bloody knife into the bed of his beater pickup and forgot about it.

A note worth mentioning, the wood and antler was sealed with Tru Oil.


So, one year later, the buyer ran across the sheathed knife in the bed of the old truck that never saw the inside of a garage. We are talking about snow, rain, and all kinds of weather.

The knife and sheath were in excellent shape except for some blade rust which I cleaned up as well as I could. Some pits were so deep I didn't completely remove but did polish up the blade as well as I could.

The original buyer was happy to get the free cleanup and gave his brother a good butt chewing about taking care of expensive equipment. Knife was still sharp when he showed up here with it, too.

Go with the Brownells AcraGlas and you will head off a lot or all of your separation problems. The same customer is a repeat customer and has sent a lot of business my way.
 
One problem I had with epoxy was over compressing the joint. I even bought special clamps to tighten the joint even more. I don't remember what finally put it in my head (this board?) that epoxy needed some space. Now I just use spring clamps, no more problems with the epoxy!
Just what I do,
Lynn
 
Think of this as an opportunity to overcome this problem. And to learn that antler and wood move a lot.

Fill the gaps with superglue. Then either deal with the gaps, or make a decorative feature that hides them.
 
Thanks for the tip on the Acra-Gel. Looks like they use it for glass-bedded rifle barrels. So it should withstand shock and heat. :) I'll try that out on my next multi-piece handle.

If I drip super glue in the gaps, and it goes where I don't want it, I suppose I can wipe it off with acetone... Can the thin "Super Glue" be colored somehow? Thinking I might try to match the brown color on the walnut side and the white color on the antler side. I could mix sanding dust from each in to the glue, but then it wouldn't be as thin - so how would i apply it?

At this point, I'm skeered the fix may look worse than the gaps.

Thanks for all the tips and encouragement.
Matt
 
Drip in the superglue, then sand it off level with the rest of the handle.
 
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