Where To Find Shooter's M1 Garands?

no, I think you were right on this Munk or at least the sources disagree. BTW - your email hasn't arrived yet.

Cartridges of the World (Barnes)
lists
M1 Ball 172 grain 2640 fps (ME 2660)
M2 Ball 150 grain 2740 fps (ME 2500)
303 Mk VII 175 gr. 2440 fps (ME 2310)
7.92x57js 154 gr 2880 fps (ME 2835)
7.62x54 Russian 147 gr 2886 fps (ME 2727)

Wouldn't thought that last one!
Anyhow, maybe ME and MV got swapped in one or the other 06 loads.

Pat
 
Wow.
You see what the muzzle energy was? 2500. You think that figure got swapped?

The Russians were ahead of their time. That is amazing. Russian bolts were rough and unadorned, but strong.

Read a side by side comparison in Gunsnammo with the Russian bolt and the Mauser. Writer said the Russian was more accurate. That's something we could sink our teeth into. Fine sporting rifles the world over were and are built on German mauser actions. But is it possible the Russian is generally more accurate? That thing? I don't believe you can possibly determine which rifle model is more accurate on the basis of two rifles, but it is interesting.

Do you remember 20 years ago when no one wanted a Savage 110? Cheap walnut stained birch stock. Black finish. The screw in headspace with the nut.

They were accurate. Savage now is given the nod, they were rediscovered somehow. And they are still accurate.

munk
 
Munk,
Yeah. likely that is where the difference came up.

The Moisins are primitive looking - but the 7.62x54R was a target range winner in Europe for years, and some tuned Moisins (even issue Finnish rifles) are tremendously accurate. Whooda Thunkit? Generally I consider an issue gun with a 3" group at 100 yds accurate enough .... but I believe the M39 acceptance standard was 1" at 100 yds with the issue irons - I think the Mauser standard was more than that. Now, addinga modern, tight chambered barrell could really up the ante .....

I read an article in G&A a few years back that showed a Czech Moisin sniper rifle. Czechs! Makers of some of the finest mausers, and they had switched to the Moisin. Maybe for political reasons ... but maybe not!

Pat
 
Are Remington's more accurate than Winchesters?
The Marines went with Remington.
I dunno. I haven't studied the Russian design much, but it's still a bolt action, based on the mauser.
I'd think a manufacturer being able to repeat good performance in a QA regime. How'd the Russians do that? There was no CNC.
If Dave Rishar is out there, please weigh in.


I took out my M1A today and had fun- trying to photograph it.


munk
 
Are Remington's more accurate than Winchesters?
The Marines went with Remington.
I dunno. I haven't studied the Russian design much, but it's still a bolt action, based on the mauser.
I'd think a manufacturer being able to repeat good performance in a QA regime. How'd the Russians do that? There was no CNC.
If Dave Rishar is out there, please weigh in.


I took out my M1A today and had fun- trying to photograph it.


munk

Remington vs Winchester? I ain't a goin' there, pal!

The russian design is a bolt gun, but not at all mauser based. Three piece bolt, I believe, but it is front lugged. The action was designed by a Russian officer (Moisin), and the feed mechanism by a French Company (Nagant, of the revolver fame). Rifles were produced in Challerault (France), Westinghouse and Remington (here in the US), several arsenals in Russia, China, E Germany, Poland, Romania, maybe N. Korea, and a few other places. The Finn's rebarreled and refitted Moisins, but made no actions - likewise the Bulgarians. I understand the the US produced rifles had to meet some of the most stringent QC standards of the era (required by the contract).

Post those M1A pix when ya get a chance!

Pat
 
I only mean derived from Mauser in the sense we have a turn bolt with front locking lugs. I thought the turn bolt was Paul Mausers idea.


I'm going to continue to be happy with my M1A without the additional 3000 dollars of debris clinging to it at 10.5 pounds without scopes.


munk
 
From Hatcher's The Book of the Garand are the following loads, in chronological order spanning the end of WWI to the end of WWII:

.30 M1906 - Flat based, 150 grain, cupro-nickel jacketed, 2,700 fps, maximum range 3,400 yards, at 50,000 PSI.
.30 M1 - Boat tailed, 174.5 grain, gilding metal jacketed, 2,647 fps, maximum range 5,500 yards, at 48,000 PSI.
.30 M2 - Flat based, 152 grain, gilding metal jacketed, 2,805 fps, maximum range 3,500 yards, at 50,000 PSI.
.30 AP - Flat based, 168.5 grain, gilding metal jacketed, 2,775 fps, maximum range 3,500 yards, at 50,000 PSI.

According to Hatcher, the M1906 and M1 loadings were both designed for the Springfield; the M1 was developed in response to the effects of plunging fire witnessed during WWI. When the M1 ammunition was supplied to National Guard units, many of them found that it shot too far to be safely used on their ranges and they requested additional M1906 to be manufactured for their use. This resulted in the M2, which is merely a product-improved M1906 loading. The AP loading came into use during WWII and obsoleted the M2 load by 1944; evidently it worked just as well as the other stuff on flesh and blood but was better at penetrating cover and vehicles.

Contrary to some claims, Hatcher maintains that the M1 Garand could not only handle the M1 load, but that it was actually developed primarily with that load and could almost be considered to be optimized for it; he further goes on to mention that Garand himself was worried that the rifle wouldn't function correctly with the less powerful M2 loading. The development timeline of the rifle, along with that of the various loadings, seems to support his claims. It's a testament to the rifle's design that it actually handled all of the loadings satisfactorily without modification.

Unfortunately, Hatcher does not mention the sizes of the powder charges. (He actually does mention a few here and there but they're scattered through the book and I'm not going to track them down.) He does discuss how improvements to the powder itself figured into each new load.

It's generally accepted that while the action itself is pretty darned strong, the op rod can be damaged by unusual pressure curves. There are loads that are recommended and loads that aren't. In general, staying close to what the gummint was loading cannot be considered to be a bad idea, but other things can be safely handled by the rifle. Some of Hatcher's testing makes my antics look positively benign. I suppose that weird or excessively violent operation -- either from very high pressures or excessive recoil -- could eventually cause a failure at the rear of the receiver from bolt hammering. Hatcher noted that this was observed early on with rifle-launched grenades and was fixed by modifying the gas system and drawing out the rear of the receiver to a lower hardness and higher toughness. While my experience with the M1 is limited, my experience with the M14 spans some years and many shots fired and the two systems are similar; even with the infamous "extended range" grenade launching cartridges (essentially 150% overloads) that we manufactured for enhanced linethrowing performance, I don't recall ever witnessing a bolt or receiver failure, although the stocks did occasionally break. :o (It didn't seem to hurt the op rods either, but you know what they say...)

When (not if) I get my Garand and start handloading for it, I intend to stick with proven powders and bullet weights, using published data and the chrony to duplicate government loadings as closely as possible. I'm not particularly interested in experimentation in this case; the government spent half a century experimenting with that cartridge and I have no wish to duplicate their work. Any of the loads that they settled on are probably good enough.

Suffice it to say, while Hatcher's books are pretty dry they make for excellent reading if serious study is the goal. Think of them as textbooks for historically-minded gunnies.

With regards to the Mosin-Nagant, the resemblance to the Mauser is only cosmetic. The magazine and bolt designs are considerably different. The magazine was necessary for the M1891 cartridge; the reason for the bolt is a bit more difficult to explain, but Hogg felt that their bolt may have simply been a way to avoid paying royalties to Mauser like everyone else was doing.
 
Let us know when you get your Garand.
Almost enough for me to get off my duff and try and get my own.




munk
 
more on the origin of bolt actions ...
I was perusing some books this weekend, and the earliest bolt action mention I came across was the Dreyse needle gun - circa 1841.

Thanks Dave, for the Hatcher reference material... I've considered getting some of his works before. Midway carries a few of his books, IIRC.

Pat
 
If you are going to spend a grand for an M1 as a shooter, why not spend $500 more for a good M1A?

I've been putting it off for years, and when I finally decided to break down and get an M1 Garand, the CMP is out of them. I do plan on getting one when they get more in. Might even try to get a carbine next year when they get more of them.

If I'm not mistaken, the CMP does have foreign 30-06 ammo for the Garands available in case lots for a good price.
 
If you are going to spend a grand for an M1 as a shooter, why not spend $500 more for a good M1A?

Following a link on another thread to garandguy, their prices start at $800.

reasons? A liking for the 30/06 cartridge? En bloc clips are cheaper than mags? getting very close to the earth ? Short arms? Owning a WWII rifle? They have a certain panache?

:)

Tom
 
Just to add an interesting little tidbit to this M1 Garand discussion, is anybody here familiar with the "Garand saga" in Italy following World War Two? Once the Italians decided to "play nice" again and we accepted them back into the fold, the always generous US gave (or sold) them a bunch of our surplus Garands. The Italians, having seen the handwriting on the wall, quickly fitted them with detachable box magazines holding 20 rounds of .30-06 ammo. Then, since NATO was becoming the European standard, Italy reconsidered and switched to the 7.62 NATO round, which is about the same as our civilian .308 Winchester. After more developments and prototypes, the Italians produced a weapon that was and is one of the greatest battle rifles of all time. By that time Beretta was handling the evolution of those old Garands and they came to call their result the BM-59, for "Beretta modification" or "Beretta model" of 1959. It was a very finely crafted almost carbine length weapon much like but even better than the US M-14 rifle. Although there were "paratrooper stocks" and "African stocks" on some, most had stocks in the classic Garand style, not to mention their Garand based actions. These all used a unique and heavily built magazine that does not interchange with our M-14 mags, but is made significantly better. Needless to say, when you can find them today these mags are expensive. Though most held 20 rounds of 7.62 NATO, some held 10 (nice for prone shooting), and some held 30 (nice for full-auto use I guess). Yes, the BM-59 was usually seen with select fire capability. Some semi-auto BM-59s were also assembled from scrap, surplus, and welded-up parts in this country and sold here to civilian shooters at one time. The final version of this wonderful weapon was probably the BM-62, a finely finished semi-auto civilian version built entirely by Beretta in Italy and marketed here. I have seem mention made of a BM-65, but I've never seen one and I think few exist.
 
Wow, did this ever go far afield! All the guy wanted to know was where to get a Garand!

By the way, jacketed .44 bullets are typically .429 In. (magnum or special) and cast bullets are usually .001 larger or so depending on the bore.

Big Bob, you can get a Garand from the CMP but I believe you have to join an organized club and compete in some matches to qualify.

If you're looking for a "survival gun" you can probably do better than a Garand. While a fine weapon, it was designed almost seventy years ago and rifle technology has come a long way, including metallurgy, stocks and actions. Remember, semi-auto is nice but you have to carry all that ammo too!
 
I ended up buying a CMP Garand from someone last October. Need to take it shooting again the next time I'm off (I shoot Greek surplus rounds through it).

Bob
 
Garands and M-14's are outstanding weapons, but I'd rather get my paws on a '03 Springfield.
 
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