Where we all eventually get to if we persist

gnique

gnique

Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
59
I have been making knives now for about six years and I have gotten to the point that I no longer DISLIKE the knives that I make. I am not to the point where I actually LIKE my knives but I have progressed to where I don't dislike them. That, for me, is a huge step forward. All of the people in my life believe that I am really very good and, given the choice, both my sisters would pick me hands down over Bob Loveless. All my friends have me sharpen their pocket, hunting and kitchen knives. I am the last word in sharp things to my friends and family. You and I know better but, hey, it is progress. But now I have some questions that need to be answered before I can move forward. I want to move ahead but I am stumped. Here goes:

1. What does annealing actually do?
2. Same with normalizing - what does it do?
3. How can grain size be reduced?
4. Do you have to forge to reduce grain size? (I only do stock removal)
5. How is steel treated such that it flexes the way Ed Fowler talks so much about and is required to become an ABS smith?

As can be seen by the above questions, about the only heat treating that I have been doing to my O1 and 1095 blades is: heat it, touch it to a magnet and dunk it. Not much more than that. I believe that there is more but I can not get it sorted out in my mind. I read and I am still confused. If some of you guys and girls will help me out at this point I promise that I will pass the favor along to some other lost soul in the fullness of time.

Thanks - Nicholas Jasper
 
Nicholas

Welcome to the forums!

Many of the topics have been discovered at length here on the forums already. If I may suggest, use the search button at the top, go to advance search and search the knifemaking forum. Use words like normalize, grain etc. and you will find a bunch of info.

May I also suggest the book -- Steel metallurgy for the non-metallurgist. You may be able to get it at your local library. If not see if they can do an interlibrary loan to get it for you.

Sorry for seemingly avoiding your questions, but the search button will answer most of them.

Brian
 
Sorry I bothered everybody. I will work on another angle. Thanks for the direction. Nicholas Jasper
 
Nicholas

It is not a "bother".

I would like to think that your questions have been answered here. By doing the searchs that I suggested, you will find a bunch of information and much of it is from people who are extremeley qulified.

I saw that you were new here from your posts # and thought I could do you a better service by pointing out the search function than to retype a bunch of information that is already published here.

You are asking good questions that when answered right have long answers. To prove my point, look at the sticky on "quenching" in this forum. If you asked "what is quenching?" an answer could have been taking a hot blade and dipping it in oil. Kevin took it a bit farther.

I hope you see my point.

Brian
 
Brian, just so you know, the search function is not available to unpaid members. (See administrative announcement from Spark at top.)

One can, however, search Bladeforums using google. Simply include site: bladeforums.com after the search string. Someone will come along with a link to the google BF-specific search engine, too.
 
If you're getting more interested in heat treating, this may help. My edge quality improved dramatically when I bought a PID for my forge. Letting 01 soak for several minutes at the right temp made a difference for me. You just attach the thermocouple wires to the PID and wire a cord to a 110v and plug it in. It's just a digital thermometer for extremely high temps. You could use it to control fans or relays but I just use it to show the temperature.

The prices and maybe the product numbers may have changed but here is what I ordered from http://www.auberins.com
1 x High Temperature Thermocouple for Kiln (TC-K-KLN) = $27.00
1 x Universal 1/32 DIN PID Temperature Controller (SYL-1512A) = $35.95
1 x Ceramic Sheath for Kiln thermocouple (TC-K-KLNSH) = $18.00 (protects the thermocouple from the extreme heat)

btw, if search doesn't work for you because of membership level go to google and type in (minus the quotes):
"whatever you want to search for" site:bladeforums.com
 
Mike Fennessy said:
...btw, if search doesn't work for you because of membership level go to google and type in (minus the quotes):
"whatever you want to search for" site:bladeforums.com
Click to expand...

Or cough up the modest $10 basic annual member fee, use the search feature here and help support the site.

BTW, Welcome to BF!!!
 
gnique said:
Sorry I bothered everybody. I will work on another angle. Thanks for the direction. Nicholas Jasper
Click to expand...



No bother at all Nicholas. Welcome to the forum.

These are extremely important questions and very well phrased. However, to have much hope of answering them properly, a person might spend an hour at it. Considering that these important questions come up frequently and have been thoroughly answered over the years, you will get a better answer finding the answers here, and then come back for clarification.

Kevin has a few stickies at the top about heat treat that answers a lot of these questions better than I ever could.

I will touch on a couple things, in a nut shell:

1. What does annealing actually do?
Softens the steel

2. Same with normalizing - what does it do?
Evens out the distribution of stuff and, when used as a part of thermal cycling, refines grain

3. How can grain size be reduced?
Thermal cycling

4. Do you have to forge to reduce grain size? (I only do stock removal)
No. In fact, forging frequently makes grain larger due to the high temps involved

BTW, controlling grain size is a basic part of heat treat. It is not the end all goal, but simply one aspect to control.

5. How is steel treated such that it flexes the way Ed Fowler talks so much about and is required to become an ABS smith?
The back is soft. This can be done by keeping it cooler while austenitizing, or keeping it hot during the quench, to reduce martensite in the spine. There is little utility to it for most knives.
 
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gnique said:
......
5. How is steel treated such that it flexes the way Ed Fowler talks so much about and is required to become an ABS smith? .....
Click to expand...

Nicholas, to try and help you get off on the right foot with the terminology, I'll mention that there is a difference between flexing and bending.
"Flex" means that the object returns to its original shape when the force is removed. In technical terms, it is referred to as "elastic deformation". In knife terms, it means it comes back to dead straight.
"Bend", on the other hand, means the object deforms past it's yield point (past the elastic limit), and does not return to true. In technical terms, this is called "plastic deformation". Once it's "bent" the blade does not return to straight.
You can go to wikipedia and read "elasticity (physics)" and "plasticity (physics)" for more complete explanations.

Despite the frequent, stubborn misuse of the terminology by some people, the ABS test is bending in nearly every case, not flex.
 
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Nicholas

I apologize for sending you down a path that you could not follow. I didn't remember the search function was not available to everyone.

The intent of my answers was to point you in an informative direction. There are chapters written on each subject you hit on and it is just as important to know not only what something is, but how to do it, why to do it, when to do it, and what is happening to the steel when we do it.

Brian
 
Cnique: When a maker gives you advice about blades, all you have to do is ask one question:
"How do you test your knives?"

His answer will tell you if his methods will lead you to the kind of knives you hope to make.
 
Nicholas, I hope that you have more persistence than to just stomp off after a few curt responses. With very little research you can answer some of your own questions. There are a lot of persons here that will go out of their way to provide you with information if it appears you are at a roadblock, but if you haven't looked at the road maps may not be so willing to provide elementary information. This really is a good place for the exchange of information. A thick skin is not a necessity here, but may at times be helpful.
Please continue to frequent this forum.
Good luck in your quest.
Alden

p.s. You do temper your knives after the quench don't you?
 
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I would like to make a confession if you will all indulge me. I started to "stomp off" but I refrained and I took to heart the advice that was given me: take the time and effort to search, read and understand the information already posted on this forum. The actual fact is that all of the information I was looking for was, indeed, right here on this forum. The only problem was that it took somewhat more of my time and effort to search, compile, print, read, reread, re reread, re re read the information extant. Another problem was that it turned to be a good deal more complex and difficult to comprehend than: heat, touch a magnet and dunk. I still don't understand the majority of it and I am vastly irritated that I am now up to my ears in chemistry, physics and metallurgy. I feel that I should say "thank you" about the way I would to the people who introduced me to golf, fishing, weight lifting, skydiving, 1000 yd. shooting and motorcycles. But "thank you" anyway.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and he will drink all your beer.

So. I need something else. Someone needs to develop a list of books that start at the beginning and finishes up with the fabrication of di-lithium crystals. I believe that I have the most basic and popular knifemaking books but I need a list of recommended books that will allow me to coalesce and coagulate the information that seems to pervade the ether of this forum. If someone will get the list started I volunteer to become the "librarian" and make a document that can be emailed to anyone who asks for it. I will also compile a list of definitions that can be developed over time for "those who seek knowledge, those who find themselves washed onto the shoals life, those who want to sustain the beginners mind".

Thank you all for your help. I have little or nothing of substance to contribute to the art, science and lore of heat treating knife blades but I do (sometimes) have the capacity to learn from others who are both generous and careful with their wisdom and knowledge. Nicholas Jasper
 
Nicholas - The mind is complex. Adsorbing complex materials takes time spaced around sleep in my opinion. Keep reading and trust your mind will adsorb and make sense of it given time. You write well and display a good thought process so just give it time to soak in....
 
gnique said:
The only problem was that it took somewhat more of my time and effort to search, compile, print, read, reread, re reread, re re read the information extant.
Click to expand...

That's all? You started this quest approximately 3 days ago and were subsequently guided to the answers within that time span so you've had roughly 3 days to absorb several years worth of information so my advice is to keep at it. Pay attention to folks like Kevin Cashen, mete, bladsmth (Stacy).

There's a reason a school year isn't 3 days long but is 10 months long... because we can't learn a years worth of material in 3 days.

What do a bag of cookies and a skyscraper have in common? They're both problems that can be solved one cookie or one brick at a time.

Focus your thoughts on one aspect at a time, start with annealing or whatever; search up and read up on that one night or a couple of nights then on to the next topic. Then do it over and over again until it sticks.

That's how I do it anyway, usually. At least 95% of what I know about knifemaking I learned on bladeforums or was directed to the information from the same. I came to this site essentially the day after I made my first really shitty file knife and was blown away by the wealth of information that is here. It just has to be tackled one piece at a time.

Hope that helps, Nicholas.

Steve
 
Nick I came here and asked alot of what I thought were good honest questions. Looking back I laugh and say what was I thinking. Go get some dvd s on knife making and sheath making and file work and forgeing and youll be thankiing me . I learned more in the last week than I did in 6 months of knife making. I started 10 months ago and 50 plus knives now finished maybe more like 65. I did 10 this past week alone. I owe my knowledge to this forum as the people here helped me alot. Listen to these guys they are in no way ever gonna give you a bum steer. my last knife I finished . kellyw
HPIM1718.jpg
 
Nicholas,
You ask very very good questions and I have tusseled with these for a long time.Then I found this forum, I found a lot of the answers to the many questions that I had , just by reading.Don't get me wrong, I hate to read, and it puts me to sleep but knowing my questions and always looking for certain answers, I have really learned alot.
There is absolutely no time for me to sit and read,I work 40-50 hrs a wk. and when I come home after a 75 mi. commute, I have to cook, clean , do washing and EVERYTHING in the house and yd.
Because, my wife is totally disable. So looking up something and studding it out for a couple of days is almost impossable.
Therefore, I have a BIG pile of scrap knives--But I love it.
So hang in there, my friend, you'll make it.
Friends, Jerry
 
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