Where we all eventually get to if we persist

Nicolas
You hit plateau's in your craft, everyone does. Sometimes all you need is a break or a new resource. I have not read everyones reply to you, but this is what I did:

My wife bought me two books about knife making. I got a 1 x 30 belt disk combo. This got me started and interested. I bought a kitchen knife set from Jantz supply. the blades are done an all you need to do is the handles with rivets. Jantz people are very good and I recommend them.

Then I connected with a local maker named George who was and still is very helpful in regard to knife making and making local contacts with suppliers. I started to upgrade my power tools, and I still do stock removal, a forge and anvil in suburban Mississauga would be detrimental to my neighbours sanity.

I do go to the CKG shows want to do the Atlanta show soon, as a spectator. What I like about this hobby is: People sometimes pay me for what I made. It is totally different from what I do as a job. It has taught me things I never would have known and it has introduced me to people who are really interesting.

Thats my two cents
 
I just wanted to add that I don't think I could count the number of times I've plugged "1095 heat treat" into a search engine and sat and read for hours on end.

Eventually you will be able to put the pieces together in the proper order.

We can't just plug in to the matrix and download all HT info into our brain in a few minutes, it takes time.
 
As a beginner myself I think I must have started the same way. I thought I had read plenty of books and looked at the great information on this site a hundred times. Eventually I did a three day one on one course with a great guy and knife maker and forged, heat treated, and made my first knife.
The DOING side of it with the guiding hand of an instructor made a lot of things "click" in my head.
I highly recommend doing a course or finding some one who can give you a bit of hands on experience.
I still don't understand a lot of things but doing that knifemaking course made a lot of things make a lot of sense!
Now the fustrating part is trying to get enough tools and space and time to make a knife on my own at home.
 
Cooper has some valid thoughts.

I often use brain surgery as an example with forging.
Would you want a brain surgeon who has read every book on brain surgery....or one who has performed at least one brain surgery.

Hands on experience is invaluable. Find a local smith who will host you for a few sessions, take a course at a bladesmithing school, attend a hammer-in, etc. You will be miles ahead.
Stacy
 
I have no idea if anyone is interested in where I have wandered since I was dispatched by all of you contributors but I feel the urge to send you all back a "post card" as it were. I have printed all I could find on this forum that concerns heat treating, I have downloaded and printed Verhoeven's Metallurgy for Bladesmiths and Others Who Heat Treat and Forge Steel, I have ordered two other basic metallurgy books from Alibris. And so I study. I am still making knives. I bought an Evenheat oven. I have put my BMW R1200C and my Kawasaki ZX 14 into winter storage. Some small amount of knowledge and vocabulary has started to seep through. So far I feel I am correct to soak my O1 blades for 10 - 20 minutes at 1475 F before I quench them in CNC quenching oil.

I am still cloudy about grain size and annealing but I have compiled notes that I am sorting out.

I would like to say a word about how I got started making knives. I have all my life been in love with knives. I bought a Randal combat knife when I was in Viet Nam in 1970 that I still have. I just recently bought one for my son who is a paratrooper (like me) in Afghanistan and for my step son who was there as a Sea Bee. I love knives. I started out reading Goddard and Fowler. I first ordered five blades and some Micarta from Texas Knifemakers and taught myself how to affix handles to blades. I then went to a junkyard and bought an old 18" circular saw blade and cut out a blade with a Dremmil, heated it with a torch and quenched it in old motor oil. It turned out not bad. I still use it in my kitchen. It cuts and it stays sharp. I kinda like it. It is a sincere knife that taught me a lot and sent me on my way. I really had to work to get to the point where I honestly wanted to know how to make a better knife. I am actually GLAD that I started with a piece of unknown scrap steel, a torch, a magnet and a pan of oil. My mind was nicely clear. The knowledge that I now seek would have been lost on me in the first years. The Japanese say that a teacher appears when the student is prepared.

I used to believe that I was a flake because I took to so many interests: Knives, guns, motorcycles, fly fishing, dog training, welding, weight lifting, bicycles etc., etc. I no longer believe that. I believe that it should be called what it rightfully is - life long learning. Thanks for your help and forbearance. I am proud to call myself a member of your community. Nicholas Jasper
 
Nicholas,

Just read your last. In metallurgy, you have met your match. Oh, a person can get gods-rotted serious and come so close as to be the same but the reality is, if an ordinary person really wants a full and complete metallurgical understanding, 4 yrs of college, then more, and then more yet is the description of it.

If it's interesting to you, have as much as pleases. If you HAVE to know why to be happy, comfortable, or to function, stiffen up your neck and get a good helmet. To make knives well for the form and steel and design-use is less of an undertaking.

This knife making is a very individual thing. The differences a person finds in making-process is as varied as the individuals, which is to say, totally different. Still, there is a simplicity to it as a person looks at it metallurgically.

The first thing is, "Every steel is different"... a quote by "mete", on various forums, over many years and many times. There is nothing in metallurgy as it pertains to steel that pertains to blades that is more important to understand. A person can actually refine it to "which O1?" and not be joking even a little bit, though the functional differences tend to fall as differences in process...

The second thing is, there are directions. The absolute best for non-denominational base data is Heat Treaters Guide (ASM publication... American Society for Metals). Then, most manufacturers give HT process directions with their steel. (It is an interesting exercise to reference the general and the specifc for O1)

You are going to have to take the directions and though deduction match your processing ability (tools and understanding) to make the steel do what you need it to do. As "every steel is different" so is every processing ability.

Your first post had a list...

1. What does annealing actually do?
2. Same with normalizing - what does it do?
3. How can grain size be reduced?
4. Do you have to forge to reduce grain size? (I only do stock removal)
5. How is steel treated such that it flexes the way Ed Fowler talks so much about and is required to become an ABS smith?

1. I can just hear "mete", "Oh for god's sake, books have been written on what annealing actually does"...
In some ways it makes the element dispersion and the crystal structure even... like it disallows disimilarities of either that might be disadvantageous to various processes (forging, machining, heat treating, etc.)... generically, "soft".

2. Normalizing is equalizing and refining grain size... making all, the same size and of useful size (usually smaller, though not necessarily better the smaller they get... for the use). Steel is more stable (has less strain) and is predisposed to eveness in processing and even change in heat treating as the grains are equal. Steel is tougher as the grains are smaller (smaller has limits of usefulness... beyond, causes structural and/or processing problems... as a generality).

3. Heating to a high austenitizing temperature for the "every steel is different", short of the limit of grain growth for that steel, and cooling in still air equalizes the grain size. Doing this two to three times, at lower austenitizing temperatures for the following cycles, refines the grain size. "mete" calls it smallerizing, I think... =]

4. As has been said, but in other words... nope!

5. One way is differential quenching where only the near-cutting-edge is hardened (only part of the width of the blade is immersed in quenchant and only part of that part is fully hardened, leaving the rest significantly less brittle ~ and significantly less strong and more prone to bending/plastic failure). Another way is to differentially temper (fully harden, fully temper to desired hardness, selectively draw/temper by applying heat to the spine to reduce it's HRc while keeping the near-cutting-edge at the initial tempered hardness... various methods... search and you will receive).
There is madness to the method. One can lay claim to general usefulness of differential tempering as use of the knife goes beyond common. One has a hard time finding usefulness in differential quenching, by comparison. The ABS testing reqirements could be passed with either method, and I believe could be passed with a fully hardened blade... a person would have to work on the later, though.

So, there's one more beer in the fridge and it's crying to be out of the cold and into the six pack holder with it's MT brothers and sisters... right after that, I'm getting into my jammies and calling it a night... =]

Mike

Well, maybe one more thing... "mete" one time said, in relation to the various forging through heat treating processes (this is a paraphrase)... what you get is either coarse grained perlite, fine grained perlite, coarse grained martensite, or fine grained martensite.
 
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None of us knew anything when we were born........well apart from instinct :)

For the me the journey keeps going. The more you learn, the more there is too know. Anyone whos truly serious about knife performance should keep learning in my book.
 
Nicholas, it is in my opinion the person that has no interests that is a flake. Those with only one are boring. I too have many interests and make my wife nuts with all the books around the house. (The shop just makes her shake her head, and say she hopes to die first.)
As we age we have to keep the gray matter exercised or it will turn to putty.
I am glad that you stuck around and gave us an update. You have as much value and right to be here as anyone else, no matter how vested.
Hopefully you have an understanding wife as you upgade your shop and library!
Thanks and have fun!
Alden
 
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