If you`re in the market for a non traditional kick butt bowie that doesn`t cost a fortune check out Dale Sandberg`s stuff (EDMF). All his knives are blued carbon steel ( saw mill blade steel,I forget the # but it`s one I`ve never heard before) with full tangs and cast alloy grips wrapped in para cord and capped by a steel butt cap for hammering (a full integral D guard is optional). It sounds odd but they`re tough as nails and hold an edge very well. BTW all his knives sell for less than $100 including a very stout leather sheath. Marcus
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Which bowie?
- Thread starter lspann
- Start date
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 3,018
Snick, NOW I understand why you're against the Black Cloud-type guards. It makes sense for your main application.
As to Mad Dogs, I own a 7" ATAK type worth about $350 and in my opinion, very MUCH worth that. He takes 01 steel to it's absolute logical conclusion.
The problem is, he's too anal a perfectionist to "back it off a notch" for the longer pieces...so he gets some warping problems in the crazy-extreme heat-treat on any piece bigger than 7" or so. At least one Panther, often more ends up scrap for every one that goes out the door. And none ship with even the slightest warpage, whereas I've personally seen a Black Cloud with a tiny bit of warp. Granted, it was a short sword but...Kevin wouldn't have shipped it, not in that state. A Mad Dog in that length range would be triple the price though.
Kevin is an absolute perfectionist, the most extreme I've ever met. He's not always the nicest, but...I respect his commitment and I respect him.
Then again, I don't have $900 laying around for a blade either.
Jim March
As to Mad Dogs, I own a 7" ATAK type worth about $350 and in my opinion, very MUCH worth that. He takes 01 steel to it's absolute logical conclusion.
The problem is, he's too anal a perfectionist to "back it off a notch" for the longer pieces...so he gets some warping problems in the crazy-extreme heat-treat on any piece bigger than 7" or so. At least one Panther, often more ends up scrap for every one that goes out the door. And none ship with even the slightest warpage, whereas I've personally seen a Black Cloud with a tiny bit of warp. Granted, it was a short sword but...Kevin wouldn't have shipped it, not in that state. A Mad Dog in that length range would be triple the price though.
Kevin is an absolute perfectionist, the most extreme I've ever met. He's not always the nicest, but...I respect his commitment and I respect him.
Then again, I don't have $900 laying around for a blade either.
Jim March
I`ve heard that line about Panthers warping many times before and it`s still a load. If Newt warped 3 RTAKs for every one that made it through okay would it be worth $450? NO, manufacturing problems are just that,the manufacturer`s problem. Not the consumers. If you can`t make something and sell it for what it`s actually worth ,don`t make it at all. There are plenty of really great bowies out there made by folks that can get them right the first time and not charge you for their mistakes. Marcus
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
Marcus,
If every other RTAK didn't make it through the heat treating process, Newt would have to charge $450 for it to keep his family from going hungry, or quit making them altogether. No full time knife maker sells knives at a loss. When Mad Dog quits getting orders for his $800 to $3000 knives and swords, he will quit making them. I don't own one myself, but if I had the free dough, I would.
Harv
If every other RTAK didn't make it through the heat treating process, Newt would have to charge $450 for it to keep his family from going hungry, or quit making them altogether. No full time knife maker sells knives at a loss. When Mad Dog quits getting orders for his $800 to $3000 knives and swords, he will quit making them. I don't own one myself, but if I had the free dough, I would.
Harv
- Joined
- Jul 30, 1999
- Messages
- 724
Eye thank you for suggesting my "Spec Ops Bowie
For those that are not familiar, here is a picture.
------------------
Lynn Griffith-Tactical Knifemaker
Winner of "Best Tactical Knife" at 1999 PKA show
My website
See my award winning "Spec Ops Tanto" in Gallery 3 of my website
GriffithKN@aol.com
For those that are not familiar, here is a picture.
------------------
Lynn Griffith-Tactical Knifemaker
Winner of "Best Tactical Knife" at 1999 PKA show
My website
See my award winning "Spec Ops Tanto" in Gallery 3 of my website
GriffithKN@aol.com
If Newt "had" to charge $450 for an RTAK I suspect he`d do the heat treat a little differently or he *would* stop making them. Just because folks will fork over obscene amounts of money for something doesn`t make it worth it,or right! I see knives as tool,not idols. I`d no sooner pay $900 for a knife than I would $500 for a hammer. I`m sure most folks share my view or $900 cutlery would be selling like hotcakes and their makers would be in the Fortune 500. Fortunatly it`s still a semi free country and you can blow $900 on a hand tool if you like and I can still say you`re nuts if you do.
Marcus PS. I have a really nice $600 claw hammer I`d be happy to sell,it has great heat treating.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
Marcus,
I doubt if Newt ever set out to make a knife cheap enough that even skinflints would buy. I am sure he set out to make a good knife by his own standards and charged accordingly. That is what Mad Dog does, he sets out to make the best knife he can make by his own very high standards, and he charges accordingly. His customers are at least as enlightened about quality cutlery as anybody elses.
Fortunately, it is not up to you how much another person should be allowed to pay for quality in a knife. What do you get out of railing at people who are willing and able to pay for what they want?
I doubt if Newt ever set out to make a knife cheap enough that even skinflints would buy. I am sure he set out to make a good knife by his own standards and charged accordingly. That is what Mad Dog does, he sets out to make the best knife he can make by his own very high standards, and he charges accordingly. His customers are at least as enlightened about quality cutlery as anybody elses.
Fortunately, it is not up to you how much another person should be allowed to pay for quality in a knife. What do you get out of railing at people who are willing and able to pay for what they want?
- Joined
- May 2, 1999
- Messages
- 1,206
Well honestly, you can buy a couple true custom knives for $900. Even assuming that no one can ever make as good a knife as McKlung, you will always have a spare handy.
Yeah, if somebody wants to shuck out $900 for a knife, that's fine I guess. Ain't nobody's buisness if they do.
I still think they're nuts though. Especialy if they're buying it as a user. I can't understand the collector mentality either, but at least I understand that they attach a value to objects that is more than the actual utility of the item itself, therefore I could vaguely concieve of someone shelling out that type of money for a collector's piece.
But in this case I think you'd mostly be buying the name. While I don't think Mad Dog's are the best knives on the market for several reasons, I am the first one to concede that they are made to be used, not for looking at. If you want to look at a Mad Dog, just look at your kitchen knives instead.
I don't think Mad Dog's qualify as bowies either, nor does the knife in the picture above.
Maybe you guys mean clip pointed knives that are pretty long instead.
Yeah, if somebody wants to shuck out $900 for a knife, that's fine I guess. Ain't nobody's buisness if they do.
I still think they're nuts though. Especialy if they're buying it as a user. I can't understand the collector mentality either, but at least I understand that they attach a value to objects that is more than the actual utility of the item itself, therefore I could vaguely concieve of someone shelling out that type of money for a collector's piece.
But in this case I think you'd mostly be buying the name. While I don't think Mad Dog's are the best knives on the market for several reasons, I am the first one to concede that they are made to be used, not for looking at. If you want to look at a Mad Dog, just look at your kitchen knives instead.
I don't think Mad Dog's qualify as bowies either, nor does the knife in the picture above.
Maybe you guys mean clip pointed knives that are pretty long instead.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
Well, I don't own any $800 Mad Dogs myself. I've got two $300-$400 Black Cloud Fighting Bowies, and a Y2K Camp Knife on order.
I do have an order in for a $450 ATAK Thing though. Woof!
But if somebody wants a big blade, and only a Mad Dog big blade will do, whatever the price, then more power to them. Mad Dog is not taking advantage of anybody.
Back to bowies in general, Ispann, are you thinking of a bowie as a camp knife, chopping down trees, skinnin' elk, that sort of thing, or are you thinkin' of a real Jim Bowie bowie(i.e. a fighter)?
What do you think of Mr. Griffith's design?
Harv
I do have an order in for a $450 ATAK Thing though. Woof!
But if somebody wants a big blade, and only a Mad Dog big blade will do, whatever the price, then more power to them. Mad Dog is not taking advantage of anybody.
Back to bowies in general, Ispann, are you thinking of a bowie as a camp knife, chopping down trees, skinnin' elk, that sort of thing, or are you thinkin' of a real Jim Bowie bowie(i.e. a fighter)?
What do you think of Mr. Griffith's design?
Harv
If I really wanted a bowie but didn't have much money, I think I'd go for the Cold Steel Bush Ranger. It's a heck of a good knife for around $60.
If I wanted to spend around $150, I'd find none better than Newt Livesay's RTAK - however it's quite a big bowie. For a bowie smaller than a RTAK, but really a great bowie, get a Cold Steel Trailmaster w/ a Carbon V blade.
If you want to spend about twice that amount ($300 - $350), you ought to go with a Busse Steel Heart II or a Busse Battle Mistress. They are as solid and as high quality as you'll ever come across.
If I wanted to spend around $150, I'd find none better than Newt Livesay's RTAK - however it's quite a big bowie. For a bowie smaller than a RTAK, but really a great bowie, get a Cold Steel Trailmaster w/ a Carbon V blade.
If you want to spend about twice that amount ($300 - $350), you ought to go with a Busse Steel Heart II or a Busse Battle Mistress. They are as solid and as high quality as you'll ever come across.
Steve,like I said above," It`s still a semi free country and you can pay $900 for a hand tool if you want to and I can still say you`re nuts if you do." Think of it this way,if Chevy charged $250,000 for each new C5 Corvette they sold because they wrecked 3 out of 4 in production would they be worth more than they are now? NO. They`re great cars, well made,high performance etc. but they`re not worth $250,000,period. The fact that Chevy might ruin 3 out of 4 in production doesn`t made them worth any more than if each and every one came out right. Chevy,like Newt makes the best car they can and charges accordingly. However if they ruined one (or two or three) while making yours they wouldn`t add it to the price of the one you bought! *That* is my point. Make the best knife you know how to,charge what it`s worth (of course!) but if you screw one up and have to start over again don`t charge the customer for your mistake and feed em a line of bull! To me it`s simple business ethics. If I ran my business that way I wouldn`t last long I`ll tell you that. I don`t have a problem with Kevin`s knives,they`re fine pieces from what I`m told. It`s just the aforementioned issue that really bugs me. I`m not telling anyone what to do,just speaking my mind. Marcus
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
What line of bull, Marcus? Mad Dog states that if you want a Panther, or a TUSK, it will cost you $800. Why? Because they are expensive for him to make.
If he wanted to gouge people for money, he would charge an extra $100 for each of the standard models that he can't keep up with the demand for. Even that would be an honored American institution known as free enterprise, charging what the market will bear.
If an $800 Mad Dog isn't your cup of tea, fine, say so until you are satisfied, but cut the crap about what is "right" and incriminations about lines of bull. That's just spite.
If he wanted to gouge people for money, he would charge an extra $100 for each of the standard models that he can't keep up with the demand for. Even that would be an honored American institution known as free enterprise, charging what the market will bear.
If an $800 Mad Dog isn't your cup of tea, fine, say so until you are satisfied, but cut the crap about what is "right" and incriminations about lines of bull. That's just spite.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 140
When manufacturing an item, one has to factor in the cost of defects. Whether this is due to a difficult manufacturing process or just plain screw ups. Vacuum tubes are one of my favorite examples. They have a failure rate similar to long blades made with Kevin's heat treat process. It's the price you pay for pushing the limits of technology.
Although I really like the feel of Steve Harvey's Black Cloud blades, I prefer the Panther. I was happy to step up to the plate and pay the going price for such a fine blade. After carrying it for the last few months, I think it's a bargain. To each his own.
Although I really like the feel of Steve Harvey's Black Cloud blades, I prefer the Panther. I was happy to step up to the plate and pay the going price for such a fine blade. After carrying it for the last few months, I think it's a bargain. To each his own.
Okay Steve,I can see I`m just not getting my point across here. I don`t know how to make it anymore clear. I simply feel that if it takes $900 worth of time and materials to make a single knife then that`s what should be charged for it. But if it only takes $400 worth to make that knife and the other $500 worth was used making screwups that the customer shouldn`t be charged for those that went into the scrap bin. This is where I feel the BS comes in. If 2 or 3 slight blems were included with every perfect one perhaps I`d feel differently,at least the customer would be getting what he paid for. You apparently think this is okay that`s FINE and certainly your perogative. I am NOT trying to change your mind or anyone elses, just trying to clarify my point. I think we`d best agree to disagree on this issue and I assure you there is no spite or hard feelings involved. I understand and respect your opinion,mine simply differs from yours. I`m on the forums to enjoy myself and learn about knives,not to argue and we`re sure not getting anywhere. Peace. Now let`s get back to talking about Bowie knives. Marcus
sevenedges
BANNED
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- Sep 14, 1999
- Messages
- 992
In my opinion a great bushblade bowie would be either a battle mistress or a trailmaster.
Cost is a tad more and so is the wait for the busse, but I think it would also last quite awhile longer. you could always do like me, order a busse battle mistress and a basic#9. You sure can't go wrong there.
LARGE BLADES ARE THE BEST!
[This message has been edited by salamander (edited 14 September 1999).]
Cost is a tad more and so is the wait for the busse, but I think it would also last quite awhile longer. you could always do like me, order a busse battle mistress and a basic#9. You sure can't go wrong there.
LARGE BLADES ARE THE BEST!
[This message has been edited by salamander (edited 14 September 1999).]
I have broken the tip on a Ontario Marine Raider bowie before. I could have just gotten a bad one possibly and they did replace it right away without a lot of the crap you get from a lot of the other manufacturers. But the tip does look a little on the thin side to me.
m
m
I'll cast my vote for Newt's RTAK... I have experience w/ both the CS TrailMaster and the SP Raider..... The CS isn't designed well for a utility knife....the Raider is just plain poorly designed and constructed for any application(IMHO), the tip is weak, the blade is poorly balanced and a bit too thick. THe SP-11 Bolo is a good one though!
- Joined
- Jul 30, 1999
- Messages
- 724
Steve,
Thank you. I charge $300 for the Spec Ops Bowie That includes a custom fit Kydex sheath.
------------------
Lynn Griffith-Tactical Knifemaker
Winner of "Best Tactical Knife" at 1999 PKA show
My website
See my award winning "Spec Ops Tanto" in Gallery 3 of my website
GriffithKN@aol.com