Which Fabrics?

S

sketchbag

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How would you rank the various fabric materials for different layers? Best to worst for....
-wicking layer/undergarments
-insulation
-shell
 
Use www.buffalosystems.co.uk and don't bother with layering at all !!!

Or a good alternative is www.paramo.co.uk

Failing that a merino wool or poly-pro base layer, followed by a wool or poly fleece mid

and as an outer I'd go with Ventile or Pertex as I hate the plastic bag feel of Goretex and it's imitators !!!!
 
I'm wondering not only whats best (and why) but how other fabrics fit into the ranking and whats the worst fabric for each purpose.

Is wool better than poly fleece?

Does merino wool have any benefits besides comfort over regular wool?

Where does cotton fit into the mix?

I'm interested not only for buying new gear, but also when going into the dresser of old clothes (which contains no fancy fabrics)
 
Cotton is good for providing a cooling effect in summer but that's about all !!!

From my own experience I would say that a top made from wool is nearly twice as warm as a similar product made from fleece, however there are many things to take into account such as the quality and knit of the wool and the type of fleece etc !

Advantages of wool over fleece are the natural anti-bacterial properties of wool, so less washing needed and no bad odours also it is safer to wear around a campfire as it will not go up in flames. Advantages of fleece over wool are the much lighter weight, generally cheaper costs to buy, often easier to wash and faster drying time !

Buffalo clothing that I previously listed will deal with condensation far better than any layering system whether synthetic or natural ! Another advantage being that you are not having to keep stopping to add or remove layers. The drying time of these garments is also incredible !!!
 
Sketchbag, this is what makes me scratch my head, get thrust into a survival situation wearing the wrong clothes and you could end up dead, get thrust into one with the wrong knife and you will more than likely make it through regardless.........but check out how many people post on a clothes thread as opposed to a knife thread ?

Start a new post with a title like " What knife for the Jungle " and you will see what I mean !!!!
 
Pitdog, while I agree with your observations, this is first and foremost a Knife Forum, so most of the conversation is about knives. If this were a "high performance clothing forum" then I would expect a different dynamic.

I like fleece because it is light weight, warm, and dries fast. I really like fleece with a windstopper layer, but it is more pricey. What is best will be mostly personal preference. Cotton is best for staying cool in the summer, however.

I'd take a machete to the jungle, or rather I'd buy one when I got there.
 
base layer- synthetic wicking fabric, polypropylene/nylon/spandex or some such.

insulating layer- thin polyester fleece, thin to medium wool/nylon/spandex

vapor barrier- thin, coated nylon or polyester shell or vest

insulating layer- thin polyester fleece, thin to medium wool

environmental barrier- coated hardshell with venting

This is what I spend most of my time in when I'm in the hills this time of year. Although I mix it up a lot depending on whether I'm on my bike or in my boots, and the outside conditions of course.

This breakdown is for my upper body. I usually don't have much over my legs, besides either nylon or cotton pants, but I use a polyester liner sock under a padded wool sock, and then waterproof socks over wool socks if I'm cycling.
 
Mostly on topic here, but tracking off a bit......You know what I really don't understand? Someone already mention that cotton is great for summer. That is because it doesn't wick water away from you. It holds it to your skin and gives you the maximum cooling affect.

As others have already said, in winter, you want just the opposite. Any moisture on the skin to be wicked away as quickly as possible so that you don't get cold.

Here is where my confusion comes in: Go look at all the HIGH priced high-tech "summer" shirts for sale. The material feels light, they have vents, roll up sleeves, etc. One shirt is very costly. Yet the material used is one that by natural wicks moisture AWAY from your body, which is exactly what you don't want for hot temperatures. Some of them even boast the fact. WTH?

Example: http://www.rei.com/product/731444
 
briangandrews said:
Mostly on topic here, but tracking off a bit......You know what I really don't understand? Someone already mention that cotton is great for summer. That is because it doesn't wick water away from you. It holds it to your skin and gives you the maximum cooling affect.

As others have already said, in winter, you want just the opposite. Any moisture on the skin to be wicked away as quickly as possible so that you don't get cold.

Here is where my confusion comes in: Go look at all the HIGH priced high-tech "summer" shirts for sale. The material feels light, they have vents, roll up sleeves, etc. One shirt is very costly. Yet the material used is one that by natural wicks moisture AWAY from your body, which is exactly what you don't want for hot temperatures. Some of them even boast the fact. WTH?

Example: http://www.rei.com/product/731444
Click to expand...

Cotton is fine in summer if you are sitting in a cafe having an iced mocha. Head for a steep hill with a loaded pack and it turns into a soggy clinging mess. Polyester silk weight tees like Patagonia Capilene wick the moisture and dry fast. Light, fast-drying nylon pants like the REI Sahara or Ex Officio work best for me-- zip-offs are great. I like the Ex Officio Airstrip Lite shirts for a hot weather button down style for sun and bug protection.

You have your physics wrong-- if you aren't wicking the sweat away, it isn't cooling. Water needs heat to evaporate, so it cools your body in the process. You can actually feel it when you put on a dry wicking shirt and your skin is wet.

The idea on the winter side is to keep your skin dry by moving the sweat to other layers and on out through vents or membranes. A light layer of polyester, along with another of microfleece is about all I need when hiking hard in cold weather. That is protected from the wind and light rain with a super thin nylon or polyester windshirt. When I stop, I need to add insulation, usually poly fill like PrimaLoft, 3D or Delta. If it is raining steady I use a poncho or a Marmot Precip jacket and pants.

Merino wool clothing like Smartwool has become more popular of late and all the reviews I have read are good, but I don't like wool against my skin. A wool jacket is a good work coat as it breathes and has good abrasion resistance. It is heavier and more difficult to launder. The biggest downfall to wool is that it dries slowly. I can soak a fleece garment, wring it out and it will dry quickly and my body heat will continue the drying process. I've gone cross country skiing in a wool sweater and it soaked up sweat and was like a boat anchor.


Here's my whole hiking wardrobe by brand:
Tees: Patagonia Capilene and GoLite C-Thru
Briefs: as above
Long johns: as above
Socks: Patagonia or Thorlo
Shirts: Patagonia Capilene, Ex Officio Airstrip Lite, Columbia GRT, REI Sahara
Pants: Ex Officio Amphipants or REI Sahara (zip offs), REI Cordura pants for winter, or Marmot Precip rain pants with long johns for all day rain.
Shorts: as above, Patagonia Baggies, Nike or Brooks running shorts
Wind pants: New Balance polyester running pants, GoLite Whim
Wind shirts: Montane Areo, Patagonia Velocity
Intermediate layer: Polartec Power Stretch top and long johns
Insulation: Patagonia Micro Puff vest, Burton Heater pullover, 200w Polarfleece vest or sweater
Rain Gear: Golite poncho, Six Moon Designs Gatewood Cape, Marmot Precip parka and pants.
Hats: Tilley, fleece beanies, Outdoor Research Peruvian Windstopper
Gloves: Peral Izumi bike gloves, Mountain Hardwear Tempest, Carhart
Shoes: GoLite Sun Dragon, Montrail Namche, Nike Air Wallowa, Merrell or Teva sandals.
 
DaleW, you also have your physics wrong. Sweat cools because it takes heat to evaporate the liquid. The key is that the sweat on your body absorbs heat from your body and evaporates. Fast wicking materials physically pull the liquid off of your body, without allowing it to absorb any heat, and take that heat with it as it is pulled away. Light weight, fast wicking materials are all the rage for summer wear, not because they keep you cooler in the summer, but because they keep you more comfortable, as you always have a dry shirt on. The reason that wet shirts feel cold when wind blows through them is that water trapped within the material evaporates and takes heat along with it. This keeps you cool in the summer and makes you cold in the winter. This is also why you put a wet bandana around your neck in the summer to keep cool. If a wicking shirt kept you cool (as opposed to comfortable) then you would put a piece of dry polypro around your neck to stay cool.
 
For wicking I like some good, old-fashioned Under Armor. It's designed to wick for athletes and just plain works.
 
hlee said:
DaleW, you also have your physics wrong. Sweat cools because it takes heat to evaporate the liquid. The key is that the sweat on your body absorbs heat from your body and evaporates. Fast wicking materials physically pull the liquid off of your body, without allowing it to absorb any heat, and take that heat with it as it is pulled away. Light weight, fast wicking materials are all the rage for summer wear, not because they keep you cooler in the summer, but because they keep you more comfortable, as you always have a dry shirt on. The reason that wet shirts feel cold when wind blows through them is that water trapped within the material evaporates and takes heat along with it. This keeps you cool in the summer and makes you cold in the winter. This is also why you put a wet bandana around your neck in the summer to keep cool. If a wicking shirt kept you cool (as opposed to comfortable) then you would put a piece of dry polypro around your neck to stay cool.
Click to expand...

That's how I've always understood it. Wet skin sheds heat far faster than dry skin will. My choice in garments whould depend upon my preference between staying cool (a deset survival situation- during hot day time temperatures) or staying comfortable (with my iced mocha in hand).
 
Another thought on natural fibers...
I've been wearing cotton duck and canvas 'bush jackets' for years. They're tough as nails, cheap, easy to repair in camp, breathe well, and aren't readily flammable. The blackberries around here eat goretex and nylon for breakfast. Cotton's limitations are well known and pretty easy to make allowances for. Until recently, I had a pair of cargo pants that I figured were a synthetic blend by the way they 'behaved' - they were actually 100% cotton (and from the Gap no less...). Another natural fiber that shouldn't be underestimated is linen. It's lightweight, comfortable,tough and it dries pretty quickly.

As some may recall from previous posts, I've been exploring traditional ways of doing things. This includes a 'rediscovery' of natural materials as well. Don't get me wrong, I can certainly see the advantage of synthetics (a cotton tee is awful under a backpack!) but I don't think they're the be-all and end-all of textiles. If one gets soaked in cold conditions, it needs to be dealt with regardless of what you're wearing. That's mindset is what bushcraft is all about, at least for me. Fortunately, I live in an area where I can light a fire on a creekbank and harvesting firewood isn't an issue.

If cotton kills then, by that logic, so do guns...

Flame suit on and locked....:D
 
Let me preface this comment by saying, I used to wear cotton t's, like I'm sure a lot of us did, back in my early days. I still do, on many occasions that others have pointed out, mainly in dry desert hiking. One glaring disadvantage to cotton, is you'd better have another shirt to wear when you get to camp, as I guarantee that cotton won't be comfortable when the sun goes down. I try to travel as light as possible, and a synthetic t shirt gives me the flexibility of wearing it throughout the day, evening and even to bed if I want (although I have some dedicated sleepwear for that). Bring a cotton t-shirt, you'll be lucky if the sweat has dried from it the next morning, and a cold wet t shirt is not what I want to put on my warm body first thing in the AM...
 
hlee said:
DaleW, you also have your physics wrong. Sweat cools because it takes heat to evaporate the liquid. The key is that the sweat on your body absorbs heat from your body and evaporates. Fast wicking materials physically pull the liquid off of your body, without allowing it to absorb any heat, and take that heat with it as it is pulled away. Light weight, fast wicking materials are all the rage for summer wear, not because they keep you cooler in the summer, but because they keep you more comfortable, as you always have a dry shirt on. The reason that wet shirts feel cold when wind blows through them is that water trapped within the material evaporates and takes heat along with it. This keeps you cool in the summer and makes you cold in the winter. This is also why you put a wet bandana around your neck in the summer to keep cool. If a wicking shirt kept you cool (as opposed to comfortable) then you would put a piece of dry polypro around your neck to stay cool.
Click to expand...

DaleW is right about this. The science behind "evaporative cooling" is clear.

Wet cotton takes longer to evaportate thus it does not cool very well and needs a lot of wind to do so. Wicking material spreads the surface area of water allowing air to circulate around the water molecule evaporating faster and thus cooling much more effeciently. Wicking material is so effective at cooling even in mid summer there have been cases of mild hypothermia and dehydration in warm windy conditions.

In desert climes cotton is the best wicking material as the air is so dry it evaporates and cools cotton at a higher rate. Because cotton takes longer to give up water the cooling effect is prolonged. Wicking material evaportates too fast and will dehydrate.

Cotton has no place in the outdoors unless its desert.

Skam
 
Ok, maybe I'm just having a hard time getting through this thread, but here's my question: I live in northeast ohio. The summers are fairly warm, so in those situations I should be wearing a shirt made of wicking material of some sort.

What is recommended for winter wear. Up until recently I wore a carhartt coat all winter, but it's fairly worthless in bad icy/freezing rain type weather. Should I be looking for a wool coat of some sort? What about layering? A wicking undershirt, a wool sweater and a thin wool coat?

I'm a little lost here, but my wife and I really want to get the best combo of clothes for winter woodsloafing and camping. I can make do with just about whatever, but she really gets cold easily, and I figure that if she's going to be getting new winter woods wear, I might as well too.

Thanks a lot!
-Parke1
 
Ohio gets very warm and humid. A silk weight type shirt is the way to go. SOmething very thin like tissue paper will keep you much cooler in summer.

As for winter yes layer. Use the same lighweight summer stuff under layers of fleece or wool and then top it off with a good waterproof breathable shell. Mitts instead of gloves in very cold.

The rule is, if you are still cold put another layer on starting with your head. Good outdoor clothes are not cheap but they are an investment.

Stay wam and dry, wet also comes from the inside, wick wick.

Skam
 
Parke1, I have lived in Central Ohio for about the past 15 years, after growing up in the UP of Michigan. Ohio has a lot of moisture in the air during the winter months. Invest in some good insulated underwear, lots of good brands have been mentioned, maybe have the wife use the next level up (instead of lightweight, use midweight.) Dress in layers, fleece and wool are good for the middle layers and the final one should be a wind/waterproof layer.

My wife prefers about 3-4 thin layers to one or two thinker layers, I am the opposite. Each person is different, you may have to experiment a little, then find what works. Kind of like a good knife.
 
I am selling off unused gear to buy Under Armour & intend to pick up a couple of sets of WoolPower or similiar quality mid layer. Higher quality often means less clothes on body and better results. I do not have to worry much about single digits in my area but humid summers in the mid 90's are common. I hope to prove the Heatgear worth the pennies this summer- intend to wear a cotton T over the synthetic.

2Door
 
lmalterna said:
intend to wear a cotton T over the synthetic.

2Door
Click to expand...

YOu will defeat the purpose of the shirt by wearing cotton over it.

Wicking clothes need air flow to evaporate water and thus cool.

UA gear is very nice stuff, I buy 1 or 2 sizes too big for lots of air flow in hot humid weather.

Skam
 
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