Which 'hawk head?

Cpl., i think you're on track buying a CS to see how you like it first. Be sure to ask the vender to hand pick a nice one out of inventory for you, this has helped me in the past.

I have CS and Vec Trail Hawks, and my opinion (just my opinion) is that the Trail Hawk head barely deserves such fine treatment... but remember that the Trail Hawk is meant to be thrown a lot, and Vec's treatment only makes this a more reliable proposition since his handles are less likely (not likely) to separate, break, or loosen. My next Vec will probably start with an $80-120 head from a reputable Forge/Smith, and go from there.

Something else to consider is if you're not going to throw it a lot you may want a stronger edge than what Cold Steel offers. Their edge is decent, but has a lot more give than you'll want in your "Busse of Tomahawks" edge. This is by intent, so if you miss your target and get a ding in the edge you can easily straighten a bend or file out a dent. But on a King of the Vec Hawks you may want to go with one of the head forgers here who can get you something of a better steel and a multi-tempered mid-50s hardness that will far outlast the Trail Hawk for chopping and cutting. Sure, you'll want a harder stone, or a diamond hone when sharpening it, but if you aren't throwing it and are careful not to chop into the soil where you might hit rocks, it's edge and performance will far outclass the Cold Steel.

Pricewise, a Vec is about $200 more than a Cold Steel, using the same head. Making it $250 more for a "better" (or at least "different in a good way") head is worth the cost when you consider what it is you want out of this tool.
 
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CPL, I'd probably have one of the smiths on Bladeforums make you a head to your liking then have Vec make the handle. That would be really awesome!!

BTW Steve, if you make that axe, I probably would get one. Thinking it would be a great hiking companion with a 4' or longer handle. ;)

Heber
 
I was thinking about that after I posted.
Also thinking of my 1095 vs 5160 thread where Vec said CS heads were 1055, not 1095, that bothered me.

I was thinking of the "Busse of tomahawks" when I posted that thread, hoping there was a forger of good repute that worked 5160. My HI kukris are 5160 and you can (and I have) beat the living hell out of them and they just laugh at you.

So. . .Does anyone make a 5160 'hawk head that does customs (I like the shape, size, weight and elongated hammer poll of the trail hawk)? :D

That, on a Vec handle would be my ideal.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
Alright Vec -- how much of a beating can your handles take?

I'm interested in your because of the handles here at the humble Hawk Project, I kind of want the Busse Combat of 'hawks -- something that can take an ungodly beating and keep going. I know one of the big plusses in a 'hawk's favor is that it can be rehandled easily, but I'd rather have one in the "don't have to rehandle it" camp.
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in case you haven't seen what this gentleman said on the Busse forum, brother;

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630622

........

we haven't broken any of the Gen 1 Mk 4's yet.

we have a different approach to toughness issues - we try to make our hawk handles as weak as possible so that they are very light and well-balanced, which circularly has the effect of making them tougher in the end that other heavier handles (there's a ten day physics discussion in there that i will spare the folks from suffering through), while still making them tougher than they need to be - it's a dance.

they are plenty tough, and a lot more reliable than anything else we know of.

- and without the weight, and punishing feedback you get in your hands from other handles.

they are made so that they can be modified to be increased in durability , but that would add weight.

i make hawks my way, to my taste as an experienced woodsman and marine, and as a man who has been adopted into the Isnag Nation of Headhunters and lived in the jungle on two continents, and crossed deserts on foot with just survival gear - i have broken every major hawk out there as part of my research and work at the Hawk Project - these handles are purpose-built to be stong enough to put up with a lot of abuse, while light enough not to be left in the truck, or stuck on the saddle.

if they won't do, we can make them twenty times stronger, by design.

if you break one of our hawks, you don't need a hawk, or you need to learn more technique IME.

but that's why we make battle axes. :D:thumbup:

we just want our investors to be happy - that's why we have the Happiness Guarantee. - we don't take headaches from anyone and we don't want to give them out to anyone.

oo-RAGH.

vec
 
JWBirch said:
Cpl., i think you're on track buying a CS to see how you like it first. Be sure to ask the vender to hand pick a nice one out of inventory for you, this has helped me in the past.

I have CS and Vec Trail Hawks, and my opinion (just my opinion) is that the Trail Hawk head barely deserves such fine treatment... but remember that the Trail Hawk is meant to be thrown a lot, and Vec's treatment only makes this a more reliable proposition since his handles are less likely (not likely) to separate, break, or loosen. My next Vec will probably start with an $80-120 head from a reputable Forge/Smith, and go from there.

Something else to consider is if you're not going to throw it a lot you may want a stronger edge than what Cold Steel offers. Their edge is decent, but has a lot more give than you'll want in your "Busse of Tomahawks" edge. This is by intent, so if you miss your target and get a ding in the edge you can easily straighten a bend or file out a dent. But on a King of the Vec Hawks you may want to go with one of the head forgers here who can get you something of a better steel and a multi-tempered mid-50s hardness that will far outlast the Trail Hawk for chopping and cutting. Sure, you'll want a harder stone, or a diamond hone when sharpening it, but if you aren't throwing it and are careful not to chop into the soil where you might hit rocks, it's edge and performance will far outclass the Cold Steel.

Pricewise, a Vec is about $200 more than a Cold Steel, using the same head. Making it $250 more for a "better" (or at least "different in a good way") head is worth the cost when you consider what it is you want out of this tool.
Click to expand...


this is one of the reasons we have the Happiness Guarantee.

a lot of folks have pre-conceived notions of what they want, when you would have to invest a lot of time, energy and money into a lot of different hawks and their cousins, the belt axes and hatchets, to decide what is right for you. - that is certainly the case here, with this forum memberships' experience levels, but not elsewhere.

when we started, the Cold Steel Trail Hawk was (and still is) the ultimate stock hawk - for various reasons.

we have been evangelizing the merits of a head that is balanced in a certain way, and less massive than 15 ounces, with a preference of around 12 - 13 ounces.

while we have never had a return to date, we consider ourselves a service, not makers in the general sense - a brother asks us for a kick-ass tool that might have to face anything? - our response is the Cold Steel Trail hawk with a Gen 1 Mk 4 handle currently - they are always welcome to send it back and get another head for a minimal fee, or just ask for a full refund. - even if it is twenty years from now! - that's the faith we have in this tool, in its standard configuration.

it's a very decent General Purpose Hawk, in my opinion.

so i am trying to impress to the folks who might not know: we put that head on our handles because it has characteristics that go beyond the edge - and the edge itself is great to modify in ways that you see fit - compound edges are great to learn.

everyone's got there favorite way of doing things - if i was a man with a forge, i'd be making something very much like a spiffed-up Cold Steel Trail Hawk, made out of 1055 or 5160 as my bread and butter hawks.

...........

there are some killer hawk heads to put on the Gen 1 Mk 4 handle, and they will always be dear to me;

i love Gransfors Bruks axes, for example - and TOPS is sending us some FAST AXE 2's that are made of the previously-discussed 1095 that i am definitely going to take on my next trip to the jungle as a knife/hawk hybrid. - hopefully we will see Coal Creek Forge, Swenson Knives, Mark Williams, more Craig Barrs, and many others on top of our handles - i just want them for myself! har!

but those are different than the Cold Steel Trail Hawk, and amongst them all, i'd still reach for the Trail Hawk to lend to a novitiate.

they are tough bastards.

and they sink deep.

i love 'em.

.........

one thing i have noticed with folks, is they have a tendency to think of a tomahawk as a little axe - what it really is more like is a really fast little knife, with power behind it;

the game guides up in Alaska always laugh when they see one of our hawks for the first time - then they get into fights over it when the season is over, after seeing the hawks sing though Moose and Mountain Goat - one brother that was a professional guide for a season started hawk fever up there for us.


crap, i see my rant light is about to explode - forgive me! AGAIN.

i just love hawks.

vec
 
That is a sweet lookin Hawk Vec. I check your listings out every time I see one and plan to bite on one very soon.
 
mnyshrpknvs said:
That is a sweet lookin Hawk Vec. I check your listings out every time I see one and plan to bite on one very soon.
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thanks, brother - we are a little more disorganized than i would like, but if you contact my Erica;

ericag@equinoxcoronado.com

and ask to get on the Heads-UP!/IGH list, she can forward ya some information on available hawks as they come around.

thanks for your interest!

vec
 
I think that I have the distinct honor of being the only person to have broken a VecHawk. Now, if we are going to compare Vecs handles to anything, I think a Busse knife is a good way to go. The hawk I broke was a long hawk with a modified riflemans hawk head on it. It is one hell of a heavy hawk head on a handle. (How's that for some onomatopoeia?) The handle broke approximately 7 inches underneath the head from over swings. This is one of the gen one handles as I recall, Vec may correct me. I was acting a little crazy and was not quite used to the length. After hours of swinging on oak and buckeye on my property AND numerous over swings on limbs that were in excess of 6 inches in diameter I had cracked the handle. I didn't actually notice the break until sometime later as the veneer of cordura hid the break and gave the handle an amazing amount of structural integrity. So much so that I would not have hesitated to use it in that condition for bad guy clean up or chopping more wood. The new Gen I mk4s are even stouter. I have held many of them and they just scream "beat someone". If you don't have one, get one. You won't be disappointed.
 
762 shooter said:
I think that I have the distinct honor of being the only person to have broken a VecHawk. Now, if we are going to compare Vecs handles to anything, I think a Busse knife is a good way to go. The hawk I broke was a long hawk with a modified riflemans hawk head on it. It is one hell of a heavy hawk head on a handle. (How's that for some onomatopoeia?) The handle broke approximately 7 inches underneath the head from over swings. This is one of the gen one handles as I recall, Vec may correct me. I was acting a little crazy and was not quite used to the length. After hours of swinging on oak and buckeye on my property AND numerous over swings on limbs that were in excess of 6 inches in diameter I had cracked the handle. I didn't actually notice the break until sometime later as the veneer of cordura hid the break and gave the handle an amazing amount of structural integrity. So much so that I would not have hesitated to use it in that condition for bad guy clean up or chopping more wood. The new Gen I mk4s are even stouter. I have held many of them and they just scream "beat someone". If you don't have one, get one. You won't be disappointed.
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guilty!


i appreciate that report, brother 'shooter.

yep, that was a Gen 1 Mk 1 handle, a very early one, and the Battle Axe was an experiment.

i think ya forgot to mention it was on a four foot long experimental handle, which is important to consider for those who don't know our hawks, if ya ask this designer - that's a lot of moment arm, swung by multiple wookies, ta boot.

the Mk 1's were made with my personal tastes in a hawk in mind - they weren't designed for Battle Axes or abuse - the future handle variants became better equipped for that.

moreover - we have only had breaks on our Experimentals, which makes me proud, especially since they still functioned - no standards have been broken yet, as far as i know, and only from wookies doing their thing :D:thumbup:- that's why we have the Happiness Guarantee though.

the polycarbonate tube in all the new hawks does some pretty neat stuff to the handle, physics-wise, ...without compromising the feel that i personally like - kind of whip-like, but with the reactivity and tracking of a stiffer handle.


makes me wanna go whack something just thinking about it. :o


we are not embarrassed by our few failures because we learn something from each one, and we haven't busted any in the last two versions, the Mk 3 and Mk 4 versions, so big deal, right?


we will bust more hawks, in tests alone - i get hurt testing more than anything in fact but way outside of normal combat extremes and utility IMHO.

stuff happens. stuff should be covered with a Happiness Guarantee, Period.

that's where i stand on that.


we could make the handles stronger at the expense of their phenomenal lightness and balance, but we make them to be used, and heavy crap that you don't use constantly stays behind.

i know where my hawk is. i'm wearing it.


we try to impress folks that this Hawk Project is a Developmental Project - and a group effort between us and our friends, the Investors;

they are helping us make better hawks, and we intend to support them in their pursuits, whether they are sensible or not, makes no difference - the Gen 1 Mk 4's are based on feedback from my fellow-whackjobs anyways...:cool:....

i am convinced that a strong strain of Red Neck in your friends is the cheapest way to Quality Control.

Red Necks are the only true Americans anyway (ol' vec checks his sunburnt neck).


anyways - the 1000 Denier Cordura we used to wrap all of our handles in gave some really nice characteristics to the hawks, and we will still be glad to do those for the brethren here, but the new Gen 1 Mk 4 Snakeskins that have replaced the Cordura skins as Standards are so kick-ass in feel and strength-addition to the handles, i can't describe them and remain credible.

so i won't even try.

i love 'em.

vec
 
762 shooter said:
The new Gen I mk4s are even stouter. I have held many of them and they just scream "beat someone". If you don't have one, get one. You won't be disappointed.
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Nice review.

I went for the Black Mamba Gen I mk4 Vec had on the For Sale forum.

I like the explanation Vec gave as to why his hawks are the way they are. Not just going with the crowd. I'm looking forward to giving it a test run.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
Nice review.

I went for the Black Mamba Gen I mk4 Vec had on the For Sale forum.

I like the explanation Vec gave as to why his hawks are the way they are. Not just going with the crowd. I'm looking forward to giving it a test run.
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thanks, brother. - hope ya love that one half as much as i do.

vec
 
Cpl Punishment said:
Nice review.

I went for the Black Mamba Gen I mk4 Vec had on the For Sale forum.

I like the explanation Vec gave as to why his hawks are the way they are. Not just going with the crowd. I'm looking forward to giving it a test run.
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You made a Great choice Cpl Punishment, That Vec made Black Mamba Is all the "War Hammer your gonna need !
 
I have Cold Steel Norse Hawks and Trail Hawks.

I have Great River Forge medium American and medium French hawks with 12 oz. heads.

I have Coal Creek spike hawks which are very lightweight.

I have Laganas.

Currently, if I were to send a hawk head for a Vec handle, it would be either a 12 oz. head from Great River Forge or a spike hawk from Steve Coal Creek Forge.

That's no expert opinion, but that's what I would do.
 
BillyJoeBobJim said:
I have Cold Steel Norse Hawks and Trail Hawks.

I have Great River Forge medium American and medium French hawks with 12 oz. heads.

I have Coal Creek spike hawks which are very lightweight.

I have Laganas.

Currently, if I were to send a hawk head for a Vec handle, it would be either a 12 oz. head from Great River Forge or a spike hawk from Steve Coal Creek Forge.

That's no expert opinion, but that's what I would do.
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hey now! no teasing poor vector....

(twitching unconsciously at the thought of handling slurpy Coal Creek Forge Goodness) :thumbup:


just about anything that weighs 12 ounces is going to be pure pornography to swing at a zombie....

maybe that's just my personal problem. :D:thumbup:

vec
 
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