Which sharpening system?

[Tall Dark and Swarfy]

I CAN freehand. I CHOOSE to use the Edge Pro.

A lot of it comes down to your personality. Craftsman/artisan types often appreciate the one man, one blade, one stone aspect of freehanding. The Zen, if you will. Engineers/scientists often prefer the accuracy and repeatability of the Edge Pro.

Ask yourself:
Have you spent a lifetime mastering Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do? Or do you carry a Glock?
Do you drive a Jaguar XK-120 roadster for your 2 hour commute? Or a late model F-150?
Do you take hotel pans out of the oven with your forearms like David Carradine in the opening scene of Kung Fu? Or are you a potholder kind of guy?

If you do decide upon the Edge Pro I strongly recommend procuring it with upgraded stones from the very start. No use handicapping yourself with the inferior stones the EP comes with. I use Shapton Pro, although the Shapton Glass has its share of fans. If you're going to be performing heavy rebeveling and repairing spend the money on an Atoma 140. You're also going to need a flattening plate for the stones such as a DMT XXC. If you really want to feed your inner geek, buy an Angle Cube and learn how to use it. Keep a log entry for each knife wrt edge bevels and sharpengin strategy.

Cheers,

Rick

 

[EyeDog]

No matter what system you use...IMO it's the finishing touch 'the strop' that makes the real difference in a sharp knife.

If you don't 'strop it' you ain't a real man.

Wondering what the women members of BF are thinking about all this BS...I mean expert opinion! 😁😁

 

[HeavyHanded]

Ask yourself:
Have you spent a lifetime mastering Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do? Or do you carry a Glock?
Do you drive a Jaguar XK-120 roadster for your 2 hour commute? Or a late model F-150?
Do you take hotel pans out of the oven with your forearms like David Carradine in the opening scene of Kung Fu? Or are you a potholder kind of guy?

Rick

These analogies make no sense to me for comparing freehand sharpening to a guided system. Is freehand the lifetime of MA or the Glock, the Jag or the Ford, burning oneself or using a potholder?



Not that you need to be a "man" to learn freehand, ladies of the house across the globe have been keeping kitchen knives sharp enough for many, many generations without a guide. The biggest thing that strikes me every time the conversation heads in this direction - when you look at most guided systems, mechanically the components are not very sophisticated. The know how behind their technical features has existed for over 150 years and likely far longer, yet only in the last generation or so have they been applied to sharpening tools - coinciding with a general decrease in edged tool usage as we have become more urbanized (and the loss of widespread knowledge pertaining to their care). The lady of the house seldom will prepare a chicken from scratch, the man of the house seldom uses a hand-honed razor to shave (though some still do, the majority do not, and even among them for most, it is a lifestyle choice, not a necessity). The list goes on, we no longer need to have widespread knowledge of keeping and maintaining edged tools for the vast majority of folk to survive in their daily lives - most people these days cannot even tell how dull or sharp a knife is except as a vague response to using it. This is a huge shift from the norm of the last several thousand years where much of humanity must have had at least some knowledge of sharpening from an early age.

If you had tried to market any of the more popular guided systems 100 or 150 years ago at comparable prices, they likely wouldn't have sold enough to stay in business, for most there was no real need.

 

[Tall Dark and Swarfy]

HeavyHanded<> My analogies were intended to illustrate that doing something for the beauty or art of it isn't always the most efficient.

Mastering a martial art or keeping an old Jag on the road are admirable ventures, both requiring dedication and talent. Not always the best when the SHTF or being pummeled by a winter storm. Similarly I think developing the ability to freehand sharpen is a great life skill to have. But it does take some level of dedication and talent to develop that skill and isn't always the most efficient. It's not for the person who just wants a sharp knife right now. We're lucky we can keep them away from the can opener. And even guided systems such as the Edge Pro can provide Zen moments. But between the first time the noob touches blade to stone and months later when they understand the feedback from the stone and achieve swarfy bliss they actually get some sharp knives without too many war wounds.

The kung-fu reference? My shot at humor. Great show, although I used to tire of having to sit through his lessons until he opened a can of whoop ass. Which I guess is another analogy all its own.

Cheers,

Rick

 

[stitchawl]

........SNIP of accurate facts for brevity only...................
If you had tried to market any of the more popular guided systems 100 or 150 years ago at comparable prices, they likely wouldn't have sold enough to stay in business, for most there was no real need.

The operative word here is 'need.' Let's look at that for a moment.
First of all, all of us 'here' are a different breed than the common housewife. We are knife nuts. Plain and simple.
How many of us 'need' a knife that is sharp enough to whittle hair? But we spend our time getting to that point.
How many of us 'need' to carry a knife every day? Perhaps (for many of us) we may actually use it 2-3 times a week for a single cut.
For those who actually do use their knife every day, most activities are probably cutting up cardboard boxes. Do we 'need' a $300 pocketknife for that, or will a disposable-blade box cutter really do the job better?

Most knifenuts sharpen because we 'want' to 'sharpen,' not because we 'need' to sharpen. Or we sharpen because we 'want' perfect edges, not because we 'need' perfect edges. (Granted, for knife nuts, the line between need and want does blur a bit... )

With that in mind, it's simply a matter of choice; do we 'want' to spend the time to sharpen because we love to sharpen? Or do we 'want' perfect edges quickly because we love perfect edges?

I don't think 'need' ever really enters the picture.


Stitchawl

 

[HeavyHanded]

HeavyHanded<> My analogies were intended to illustrate that doing something for the beauty or art of it isn't always the most efficient.

Mastering a martial art or keeping an old Jag on the road are admirable ventures, both requiring dedication and talent. Not always the best when the SHTF or being pummeled by a winter storm. Similarly I think developing the ability to freehand sharpen is a great life skill to have. But it does take some level of dedication and talent to develop that skill and isn't always the most efficient. It's not for the person who just wants a sharp knife right now. We're lucky we can keep them away from the can opener. And even guided systems such as the Edge Pro can provide Zen moments. But between the first time the noob touches blade to stone and months later when they understand the feedback from the stone and achieve swarfy bliss they actually get some sharp knives without too many war wounds.

The kung-fu reference? My shot at humor. Great show, although I used to tire of having to sit through his lessons until he opened a can of whoop ass. Which I guess is another analogy all its own.

Cheers,

Rick

With that in mind, it's simply a matter of choice; do we 'want' to spend the time to sharpen because we love to sharpen? Or do we 'want' perfect edges quickly because we love perfect edges?

I don't think 'need' ever really enters the picture.


Stitchawl

I guess this is where I'm having the misunderstanding. To my way of thinking, using a stationary unit, specially cut sharpening stones and fixtures to fit that unit, methods of manipulating the clamps to accommodate various types of tools, a comparatively hefty upfront cost, inability to rapidly change sides, etc all do not equate to efficiency or ease to me. What could be faster (aside from flipping a switch) than grabbing a stone and going to work with a good idea of what needs doing? I don't go freehand for the joy of it though it is pretty rewarding and does offer a chance to Zen in on a task. Its just plain easier, more simple. Sharp edges are a consumable resource - we're going to be coming back to this often.

When you have a basic understanding that can be acquired in relatively short order - let's face it, sharpening stuff is not rocket science - when this understanding allows you to approach everything from a felling axe to a paring knife, a convex edge to a chisel grind, allows you to work from a cinderblock to a Coticule, why wouldn't one take the step and learn it. In all reality its got to be a more basic skill than knitting and a lot of people can knit. Imagine trying to sell a 2 or 300 dollar widget that holds and manipulates the needles while you run them though a bunch of precision template guides...

I don't have any sort of existential problem with guided units, and can understand the siren call of "perfection", but to claim they're superior in use to freehand is just not IMHO, an accurate statement. There is zero evidence that a guided system edge lasts any longer, is any sharper off the stone or strop than one done by hand, or is any faster on average to produce. Cosmetically it might look nicer, but in most cases that's like polishing your sneakers.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just putting out a counterpoint to what I perceive as a lot of comment to the effect that freehand sharpening is somehow inferior technically or practically, or of value primarily for personal aesthetics compared to the product of a guided unit. For the most part I believe the opposite to be true. Is all good, we are all a bit knutty here to start with.

Related/unrelated
For Xmas last year I rec'd the entire Kung-fu box set - totally awesome. I cannot even imagine a modern TV series that might demonstrate avoidance of violence, respect for strangers, self respect, hard work, and helping others without reservation - what companies would even sponsor such a show? And yes, sitting through the preachy parts takes just as much patience as I remembered...

 

[David Martin]

The agrarian society of our Grandfathers day could sharpen most any tool on a crude stone (when compared with todays stones). They had the knowledge. Today our city societies have lost the 'knowledge' of sharpening as we see so many asking for it on this site weekly. Over and over... For some reason it's hard for them to grasp it. While running a computer program they find easier. This lost knowledge is being rebirthed from sites like this. Still, it seems slow. Thus, we see so many gravitate toward the latest whiz bang device. Just the attempt toward free hand sharpening scares many off. My Grandfathers would shake their head at this. Yet, the knowledge is getting out and in years to come whether by free hand or device we will see more sharp knives being carried. DM

 

[Jason B.]

From everything I have seen a guided system such as the edge pro takes as much if not more time to sharpen a edge. It's a simple fact of small stone, the small EP stone just like most guided systems cannot remove as much metal as a larger stone. So, when it comes to speed of sharpening freehand will win hands down every time.

And I have a hard time swallowing the "well it's sharper or it's perfect" because I have had many EP and WE users send me a knife for sharpening. Most of the time I'm fixing the recurve near the heel of the blade due to over grinding with small stones or I'm just sharpening the blade because the owner could not get it sharp.

Regardless of what you buy you must still learn to sharpen. If you don't know what you are doing then a guide won't make a difference.

 

[stitchawl]

...... There is zero evidence that a guided system edge lasts any longer, is any sharper off the stone or strop than one done by hand, or is any faster on average to produce.

Looking back through this thread, I don't see anyone suggesting that guided systems produce better, sharper, or longer lasting edges. As far as faster goes... well, I guess that depends on the guy behind the sharpening. It takes me about 2-3 minutes to sharpen a knife on a Sharpmaker, but considerably longer (and messier) to sharpen on Japanese water stones. Granted, setting up an EdgePro takes a few minutes, and for sharpening a single knife is quite time-intensive. But when sharpening half a dozen kitchen knives, a couple of hunting and bushcraft knives, an a couple of folders, and taking them from 320, 600, 800, 1,000, 2,000, 4,000... the EdgePro virtually races compared with the slow and steady grind on the water stones. At least for me. Your mileage may vary. I only use my EdgePro a couple of times a year for that very reason. I'll only bother with it if I have a bunch of knives to sharpen at the same time. Otherwise, I'll use the Sharpmaker or a DMT Aligner because they are faster for sharpening single blades.
But then, I ride my 11000cc Yamaha cruiser when when I want to go long-distance motorcycle touring. I use my 125 Honda motorscooter when I want to go to the market in town. It's a case of choosing the right tool for the job at hand.

Let's put it this way... Most pro sharpening services don't free-hand sharpen on stones. There is a reason for that. It's choosing the right tool for the job at hand. If free-hand on stones was faster, they would do it that way if for no other reason that profit. In business, time is money.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just putting out a counterpoint to what I perceive as a lot of comment to the effect that freehand sharpening is somehow inferior technically

Again, I saw nothing to imply this idea. Almost all systems will produce the same edge results. It's just the way we get there that differs.

From everything I have seen a guided system such as the edge pro takes as much if not more time to sharpen a edge.

Yes, it does. But not to sharpen lots of edges.

It's a simple fact of small stone, the small EP stone just like most guided systems cannot remove as much metal as a larger stone. So, when it comes to speed of sharpening freehand will win hands down every time.

Well... that 'would' be the case if the person using it were to move that small stone at the same speed we move our knives when we free-hand. But most EdgePro users resemble rabbits fornicating when pumping that EdgePro arm back and forth! I know I do. Ben Dale does. Zip! Zip! Zip!

Regardless of what you buy you must still learn to sharpen. If you don't know what you are doing then a guide won't make a difference.

Now THIS I can agree with 100%! Unfortunately it just has no bearing on the OPs original question. He wanted to know which system to buy.


Stitchawl

 

[Jason B.]

Wanna race?

 

[Sadden]

The operative word here is 'need.' Let's look at that for a moment.
First of all, all of us 'here' are a different breed than the common housewife. We are knife nuts. Plain and simple.
How many of us 'need' a knife that is sharp enough to whittle hair? But we spend our time getting to that point.
How many of us 'need' to carry a knife every day? Perhaps (for many of us) we may actually use it 2-3 times a week for a single cut.
For those who actually do use their knife every day, most activities are probably cutting up cardboard boxes. Do we 'need' a $300 pocketknife for that, or will a disposable-blade box cutter really do the job better?

Most knifenuts sharpen because we 'want' to 'sharpen,' not because we 'need' to sharpen. Or we sharpen because we 'want' perfect edges, not because we 'need' perfect edges. (Granted, for knife nuts, the line between need and want does blur a bit... )

With that in mind, it's simply a matter of choice; do we 'want' to spend the time to sharpen because we love to sharpen? Or do we 'want' perfect edges quickly because we love perfect edges?

I don't think 'need' ever really enters the picture.


Stitchawl

Well said!

There seems to be this misconception that systems such as the EP are slow and offer no feedback , any monkey could do it etc. I would strongly disagree with all these statements.

Just like any other sharpening technique theres a learning curve. Your slower at first. But it takes me just as long to flip the knife on my EPP as it does freehand so i wouldnt say that.

Using a guided system still requires some knowledge as to whats going on. If you dont understand the basics of a burr you wont succed freehand , ep , weps or otherwise.

Theres another misconception that guided systems provide no feedback. I would strongly disagree here. I pick up on many idiosyncrasies of stones that a freehander may or may not even notice.

I use the EPP because I am looking for perfection. Sometimes it takes me longer sometimes it takes shorter than a freehander. When i get large japanese style bevels I freehand. As I am chasing different goals with those knives.

 

[Tall Dark and Swarfy]

There is zero evidence that a guided system edge lasts any longer, is any sharper off the stone or strop than one done by hand, or is any faster on average to produce.

In fact, a good freehand edge probably lasts longer because of natural convexing that's going to occur. The guided system edge will probably be a bit sharper because of the lack of convexing. But I don't want to open that can of worms here!

Not trying to shill for guided systems. I started freehanding back in 1974 and got some pretty spectacular edges out of my high carbon fixed blade and whatever stainless Buck was putting in their folders back then. My favorite fixed got stolen out of my car while I was in college and my favorite Buck folder is sitting in the glove compartment of an airplane at the bottom of Cold Bay, Alaska. I moved away from knives for a long time after that. When I got into serious kitchen knives and found myself needing to sharpen again I could have reached for the old Washita and Arkansas stones, but I thought I would try a guided system. I now like the Edge Pro because of it's precision and repeatability, and, for me, efficiency. I could say I'm trying to keep up with the times, but truth is there is nothing wrong with the traditional art of freehanding. And when I have kids they are going to prove that they can freehand an edge before they're allowed to get near the Edge Pro. But by that time there will probably be a cutting laser built into every iPhone.

I'll leave you with one more of my terrible analogies. Laser eye surgery is pretty common these days. It is actually nothing more than a complex computerized jigged system. Back in the 80s similar surgery was being performed, at much greater cost, with scalpels. So you have an accurate jigged system that a moderately talented technician can employ versus a freehand technique that only a surgical master can do. Extreme example, but you get the point.

And quit using the term 'rocket scientist' or you-know-who is gonna show up!

Cheers,

Rick

 

[Ben Dover]

I got involved in this after the rather ridiculous comment of "Be a man and freehand."

I will put my manhood up against that individual any time.

As far as the argument that a skill is being lost, that is equally specious. Most of us have lost the ability to successfully hunt with a spear, or start a fire by rubbing sticks together. Who cares??

I have a rifle to hunt with, and matches to light my fires. And an Edge-Pro to keep my knives "straight razor" sharp.

 

[stitchawl]

As I stated in the first line of my original post, I learned to sharpen free-hand, and continued to use that method for almost 25 years.
I know how to free-hand sharpen a knife.
I also know how to light a fire with a flint and steel striker, climb stairs, and make soap from oil and lye.
I have those skills.
I just don't need to use them if I choose not to. At 67 years old I have no need to test myself, nor the desire to play Neanderthal Man. That was fun when I was 37. These days I use a Bic lighter to start my fires (though do carry a flint and striker as a back-up when in the woods,) take the elevator to reach the top floor (unless I feel like some exercise,) and buy Dial soap at the supermarket. I also use guided systems to sharpen my knives 99.9% of the time.

Why not? Times change. There is no reason not the change with the times. There is no valid reason not to use a method that is easier (which is why they've developed,) saves 'me' time and energy, and produces the very same results.
Free-hand sharpening is fun... for one or two knives. 'I' don't find it fun to 'have to do' every day for dozens of knives.
Other folks might, and that OK.
Do what you enjoy. We all can get the edges we want with the methods we prefer.

Stitchawl

 

[EyeDog]

Spent an hour today with my new Sharpmaker and put very sharp edges on several knives.

Last week spent a few hours on my washboard with a couple of knives.

I enjoyed both experiences without jeopardizing my manhood.

 

[bigshoe83]

I have the Wicked Edge and just recently acquired the Work Sharp Ken Onion edition and like both. I use the Wicked Edge for my nicer knives and I use the Work Sharp for everything else, especially large fixed blades and kitchen knives since they don't really need a super polished edge and they are much quicker to sharpen on the Work Sharp. Different strokes for different folks I guess. If I had to choose one and the budget would allow I would go with the Wicked Edge. It produces the nicest edges I have ever seen if you are willing to invest the time. Not to mention if you don't like it I am sure it could be sold without much of a loss.

 

[hunter s thompson]

I really like the KME system, works great FOR ME, I can sharpen freehand, and do so on occasion, I also bought my then 12 year old (now 16) a Sharpmaker, which I use every now and then. All of them work great, and are effective systems. I haven't used a Edgepro or a Wicked Edge, I am sure they are amazing systems also. I will throw a recommendation in for Heavy Handed's washboard, it is a great standalone system that my 16y/o has taken over and with it has learned how to freehand sharpen on stones, by using it as a "learning tool".

 

[OHALLUM]

Threads like these are pure entertainment until you read enough of them that they become boring and predictable. Right now to me they are still entertaining. The replies are as predictable as snow in the Yukon area of Alaska. As many opinions as there are "systems" and types of stones will be pitched and bragged upon as being "BEST". What is really best is whatever an individual can find to get his/her knives as sharp as deemed necessary to do the job at hand. That "system" can be as simple as the bottom of a ceramic coffee cup, or the latest whiz bang device costing hundreds of dollars.

Stitchawl probably stated it best in describing what a sharp knife is to each individual's need. What we "want" is nowhere near what we "need" when it comes to a knife to be used as a tool. A knife that can tree top arm hair and be used as a mirror to read by, is not the same knife we would use to slice an apple or an orange with this morning, and then use it to cut some brush or piece of wood with this afternoon. We read or talk on these forums about all the different levels of sharp that we have accomplished with our latest whiz bang device, and then suddenly our old method of keeping our knives serviceable for our own needs is no longer acceptable. Off to the store/web site we go to spend $1000.00 on a system to keep our $50 knife sharper than we really need it to be. "Braggin rights can be expensive and foolish in the long run. But, "Oh Well", to each his own. Just my unsolicited opinion of course!:foot:

Blessings,

Omar

 

[Knygathin]

Does the Gatco 10011 Backpacker 2-Stone Diamond Sharpening System and the Gatco 10006 Ultimate diamond hone sharpening system use the same quality coarse and fine diamond hones?

I saw that the Backpacker version is made in China, but I don't know about the other.

 

[bonzodog]

The DMT Aligner kit works for me,short learning curve and not expensive.