Which stainless for a survival knife?

Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
1,411
I was wondering which, if any, stainless steel would be suitable for a survival knife? Now I am assuming that a survival knife should have the quality of being able to be very easily sharpened, for example, on a smooth rock. This would presumeably rule out high end stainless steels which have a reputation of being hard to sharpen.

So which stainless would be the best choice for an easy to sharpen survival knife?
 
Easy to sharpen is one of the greater knife myths, it is far more dependent on the suitability of the geometry and steel to the task than the machinability of the steel. With the correct geometry and the steel which matches the requirements of the of work, sharpening should be a matter of removing microns of steel from a very narrow strip of the edge which should only take a few passes on a hone. Sharpening time takes a lot longer when the edge gets damaged from denting, impaction, fracture, corrosion or excessive wear. This is due to a combination of wrong steel for the job, and less than optimal geometry.

The best steel for a survival knife depends on what you want it to do. If you are talking about high chopping impacts, prying, bone and other hard contacts, I would go with a very tough steel like AISI 420HC. Though you would do much better with a simple spring steel unless you live in a very corrosive enviroment. If your survival knife is going to be used mainly for food prep, and other light cutting, I would go with S90V, fully hardened, and a very thin and acute edge bevel. Though again you would be better off with a non-stainless steel like 10V, unless corrosion is very heavy.

-Cliff
 
440C sounds like the one for you IMO, super rust resistant and easy to sharpen. If you need a tougher steel maybe one in AST34 for heavier usage, not as stain resistant as 440C but it's still easy to sharpen.

James
 
I know that some "steel junkies" are going to want to beat me up (give it your best shot guys...I'm pretty tough :D), but I will suggest AUS-6, or the slightly "better" AUS-8 as those steels are easy to sharpen, they hold a sharp edge pretty well, and they are pretty rust resistant...All are traits that a "survival knife" must have.
 
Originally posted by glockman99
I know that some "steel junkies" are going to want to beat me up (give it your best shot guys...I'm pretty tough :D), but I will suggest AUS-6, or the slightly "better" AUS-8 as those steels are easy to sharpen, they hold a sharp edge pretty well, and they are pretty rust resistant...All are traits that a "survival knife" must have.

I'm with you glockman, there's nothing wrong with AUS - 6 or AUS - 8!

I would also have an eye on VG-10. Altough it is a first class stainless steel, it is not as hard to resharpen in the field than anyone might think and the edge I got in sharpening in the field was coarse,.........but VERY aggressive!

AISI 420J2 is also applicable for the intended use of the knife

greetings
Gerry
 
sniper66 :

AISI 420J2 is also applicable for the intended use of the knife

What I would be concerned about here would be the hardness. AISI 420 is often found very soft, ~45 RC or so. This would induce the need for a very thick edge and thus low cutting performance. AISI 420HC, AUS-6, 440A or similar can all be made decently hard > 55 RC, and will still be decently tough, for a stainless steel anyway.

-Cliff
 
I agree with Glockman and Sniper66, I would likely go with AUS6 or AUS8, for a field sharpenable stainless steel for a "general purpose" survival knife. I think I would pick VG10 if higher edge holding is required. If more rust resistance and impact strength are called for (such as for a heavy chopping blade), I would consider 17-7PH.

-Frank
 
Hello Cliff,

In your first post you state that edge geometry is the most important factor influencing ease of sharpening. I frequently see comments here saying that many of the high end stainless steels, and some of the alloy steels like D-2 and INFI, are hard to sharpen. Can I infer from your first post that knives made with such steels could be sharpened on a rock should the edge geometry be correct?

I think of a survival knife as one that should be usable should one become lost in a forest somewhere, without access to sharpening equipment.
 
I have had great success with 10V with a 20 per side convex edge in slightly thicker than 1/4 stock in a 15" over all knife (10" blade).

Chopps and cuts forever and no damage. Rust can be a problem though if I do not take care. Mostly around the Tang where the leather mets the guard...(leather oils causing this?)
 
W.T. Beck :

[hard and wear resistant steels]

Can I infer from your first post that knives made with such steels could be sharpened on a rock should the edge geometry be correct?

First off there would be no need to. Those knives will actually last many days of constant use for vastly more work than necessary unless you are just looking for stuff to cut up (which I am very familiar with). Unless you are spending weeks at a time, sharpening will never come up. It would only be a concern if you were in a plane crash or similar and of course kept your knife but lost your honing supplies and were looking at month+ time in a very knife demanding enviroment.

But yes, even the harder high alloy knives can be sharpened on a rock. The natural benchstones are just rocks after all. They have just been milled and lapped to a nice presentable shape. The biggest problem with using rocks that you find is that the surface is very uneven, and the consistency very low. So you get large scratches occasionally and it is therefore hard to get above a certain level. You may find it easier to use lapping pastes made from river silt depending on your location.

I have sharpened very high alloy stainless steel blades (VG-10) on everything from rocks to rusty picks. The blades were predulled by digging holes in rocky soil. It was not difficult to get them to the point where they could cut fabrics with a few passes. However you will have a hard time getting any blade back to near optimal levels on random rocks, because quite frankly, a benchstone so horrible that you would never use it, will be 10x better than what you would find under foot, otherwise those natural stones would be rather cheap, or your could make a few hundred dollars quite quickly just by picking up all those rocks and selling them on ebay.

I think of a survival knife as one that should be usable should one become lost in a forest somewhere, without access to sharpening equipment.

Quite frankly, the amount of wood you would need to cut in order to make an INFI (or similar) knife go that blunt that you could improve its sharpness on a rock would be equivalent to a small forest. What I would be concerned about for preparing for that type of situation would be maximizing your technique to minimize the strain on the knife and yourself, as well as practicing general methods to do the same.

For example, if you have to dig or root in soil, carve a stick and fire harden it rather than wear all that metal off the knife edge. Use the back of the knife to break bones rather than the edge, and practice knowing how to seperate joints by cutting the connective tissues and breaking the joints so you can minimize bone contact. Even small steps like removing the bark from a tree before chopping it can help a lot as the bark will collect dirt and debris which can be very abraisive.

As well, split up the work into sessions. This will not only let you recover which will make you more productive, but it allows the edge to relax back into alignment which will keep it sharper for longer. In general try to avoid cutting dirty materials, a simple rinsing can save you time in the long run by preventing excessive honing. Plus dirty materials are not usually great to use anyway, really dirty rope for example abrades itself which you would want to avoid since it is going to be in short supply.

Also, keep in mind all the edge maintaince techniques, which while they can't replace honing, can drastically increase the time the edge stays sharp. Experiment with stropping and burnishing which both can be done on a very wide variety of materials from human skin, woods, plastics, all manner of clothes, various bits of hardened metal and even glass. Any very critially, rinse the blade and dry if at all possible after constact with salt water or acidic juices. Even the stainless blades won't take this for very long without excessive edge damage resulting.

So in very short, yes it can be done, but no it can't be done well regardless of the steel, and no its not a real concern outside of very long extended stays and quite frankly, it isn't going to be the major concern in that case. If you have survived to the extent that the knife is dull, you been there for quite some time and have done a lot of cutting which should have included such things as; having built a shelter, gathered a supply of fire wood, stocked signal fires, collected and smoked/dried foods etc. . Now you can relax and carefully work the edge back up to par with some light honing.

-Cliff
 
Cliff has presented a very good point of the actual use of a survival
knife in practice. But for me as long as it's steel it's better than the
alternative choices.

Like Gockmann and a few others I prefer Aus-8 by a wide margin for
general purpose use or 420HC. What you have in survival situation
will depend on what you have with you at times. So I carry my favorites
steels as a rule and don't worry about if it's a good survival steel or not.
If I get in pinch it will be all I have to use anyway.:eek:
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
sniper66 :



What I would be concerned about here would be the hardness. AISI 420 is often found very soft, ~45 RC or so. This would induce the need for a very thick edge and thus low cutting performance. AISI 420HC, AUS-6, 440A or similar can all be made decently hard > 55 RC, and will still be decently tough, for a stainless steel anyway.

-Cliff

In my experience AISI 420 is not that bad that everybody says. A hardness of arond 45 HRC surprises me a lot,'cause most knives made of AISI 420 will be at around 54 HRC . Nevertheless,..... Survival is dealing with extreme situations under rough conditions and a knive there would not only be a cutting tool. I have good experiences with that steel especially concernig the toughness of AISI 420 and its ability to withstand really a lot of lateral stress. Sure,.... that's my way of thinking, but,........ what will I do if my one and only knive made of i.e. BG-42 is broken?? Then I'm in big trouble. What counts in such a situation is toughness and ease of resharpening in front of edge holding ability. No doubt Cliff,...... VG-10 is my favourite steel an I really love my Fallknivens, but we have to take into account, that not everyone is skilled enough to fieldsharpen VG-10.

greetings,
Gerry
 
IMHO - in hunting and skinning - edge-holding is king.

Go with the hardest you can get - ATS-34, 4xxV series, BG-42...
 
sniper66 :

[AISI 420]

A hardness of arond 45 HRC surprises me a lot,'cause most knives made of AISI 420 will be at around 54 HRC .

While the advertized specs are often high, getting AISI 420 that hard after tempering is rare, it only has 0.15% carbon. From just experience with AISI 420 knives, mainly the fantasy and cheap Taiwan ones, they are no where near 54 RC, because they dent and roll too easy.

Nevertheless,..... Survival is dealing with extreme situations under rough conditions and a knive there would not only be a cutting tool.

No arguments here, but I do feel that you can step up in hardness to around 55+ RC with 420HC, 440A or AUS-6 without the blade becoming too brittle. This will allow you to craft a better cutting edge, and have it stay aggressive longer. Moving up to steels like ATS-34, VG10, AUS-10, then you are trading off impact durability and flexibility for strength and edge retention which can be fine depending on what you want to do with the knife and your skill level.

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
As well, split up the work into sessions. This will not only let you recover which will make you more productive, but it allows the edge to relax back into alignment which will keep it sharper for longer.
italics mine
Explain that one, will you?
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp

[AISI 420]



While the advertized specs are often high, getting AISI 420 that hard after tempering is rare, it only has 0.15% carbon. From just experience with AISI 420 knives, mainly the fantasy and cheap Taiwan ones, they are no where near 54 RC, because they dent and roll too easy.


AISI specs list 420 as having greater than 0.15% carbon (the same steel with 0.15% or less carbon is classified as 410). 420 can have as much as about 0.35% carbon, in fact 420 with 0.35% is known as "regular cutlery grade steel", and is hardenable to about 55Rc. 420HC is the same with a pinch more carbon, allowing hardening to about 58Rc. Oddly enough, the first stainless cutlery steel made by Firth & Sons in 1914 for George Ibberson & co., had about 0.4% carbon and 14% chrome - very close in composition to 420HC.


-Frank
 
W.T. Beck,

Well, the only stainless I use is S90V. I'm plenty happy with it and it holds a hell of an edge. In other words, you can see the difference, not just think you are. I harden at HRC59.
In turn, its a real bitch to re-sharpen. So, since you were concerned about re-sharpenability, I guess it depends on your "survival" situation. If you were stranded from civilization forever, never to see a proper sharpening device ever... I wouldn't use S90V. :cool: But, since that scenario is highly unlikely, I'd opt for a geatly wear resistant knife. Better to count on the knife working well, than hoping for that perfect natural stone to show up for you. :D

Really I'd go with a 10xx for survival. Simple is reliable. My favorite. Just some thoughts, good luck in your search.

-Jason
 
Back
Top