Which stainless for a survival knife?

Alberta Ed · Oct 9, 2002

I read recently that Bob Loveless has switched to VG-10 primarily because of its edge-holding.If that's not a great recommendation, I don't know what is

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sniper66 · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Alberta Ed
I read recently that Bob Loveless has switched to VG-10 primarily because of its edge-holding.If that's not a great recommendation, I don't know what is .

AMEN!! This is really water on my mills,....huhh....
Ed, that's exactly the reason why I love all my Fallknivens that much! Sure,.... it's also the workmanship and Peter Hjortberger, a hunter and outdorman himself, who knows exactly what is needed to make good knives. Nevertheless I am happy to see guys like Bob Loveless switching to my favourite blade steel.

greetings,
Gerry

Cliff Stamp · Oct 10, 2002

frank k :

AISI specs list 420 as having greater than 0.15% carbon

Maatweb lists it at 0.15%, but there are different types and specs are generally loose in the sense that you don't get the exact same melt from one manufacturer to the other. Back to the hardness issue, I would be very interested to see any hardness testing on production AISI 420 blades (not 420HC) that showed hardness levels of ~55 RC.

420HC is the same with a pinch more carbon, allowing hardening to about 58Rc.

As quenched or after tempering? And how many people using AISI 420, which is chosen mainly for cost cutting properties, are coming close to its max potential? Getting specific, Wilson uses a 0.5% version of 420HC and it quenches at 57/58 and after tempering is 54/55 RC.

Owen, the main form of blunting when chopping wood is due to deformation. The edge will relax back from the deformed state over time. The more frequently you rest, and the more skilled you are, the more significant this effect will be.

-Cliff

The General · Oct 10, 2002

Hey, Cliff have you tried one of those Swamprat knives yet? The ones that look like "copies" of the Busse line. Have a look at the cutting a concreate block in half test on the Forum, amazing stuff...

Cliff Stamp · Oct 10, 2002

The General :

have you tried one of those Swamprat knives yet?

Yes, I have the Howling Rat and Camp Tramp, initial impressions are high across the board. I just want to work with them for a week or so to insure that there are no problems with extended use before commenting on them in detail.

-Cliff

The General · Oct 10, 2002

Cool, how does the handle material feel to you? I was never sold on the 'basic' series handles 'feel'. Can't comment on usage as I never bought it (I saw a Basic 3). If it does not feel right, I don't buy!

Cliff Stamp · Oct 10, 2002

It is slightly compressible, not so much so you can feel it getting squashed, but it isn't 100% rigid like Micarta. It has a slightly aggressive texture, more so than the Becker line, but a lot less than the One Piece from Reeve for example. Personally I would opt for a full out texture like Reeve uses on G10. Yes it is aggressive as all hell, and will chew your hands up at first, but when you get used to it which only takes a few weeks, the security is great. Cost would go up significantly with G10 though, and I am probably in the minority of those who would want that level of checkering.

On the positive it completely encloses the grip which gives you insulation from heat and cold. On the negative a hammer poll which extends out like on the Fallkniven blades would be nice, though this would mean a major modification to the overall design as it would require a longer tang which would shift the balance point significantly. The overall shape fits me well, and the handles are scaled well to match the blade. The Camp Tramp for example has a thicker and wider grip than the Howling Rat, so you are using it in a more open grip. There are some nice small attention to detail features as well like the rear butt hook slants back which for the larger blades is another source of power when chopping as you can drive off of it.

-Cliff

Jack142 · Oct 10, 2002

I am a fat old man, but in my youth I took several survival courses and taught a few too. Here in Colorado, there is not much moisture to rust a knife.But, stainless was always recommended. At that time,
440 C was the best you could buy.. We always recommended that a sharpening system be carried with the survival pack ( mirror whistles compass etc.)
We use to recommend a sheet of sandpaper, I think it was 220 grit.It weighs next to nothing, easy to fold and carry. Takes up no room at all.
So, my point is that whatever knife you carry, you should have a small sharping system with it,
I would carry the hardest steel possible, and then take a diamond Eze Lap to touch it up if it gets dull. I got one for just a couple of bucks, it sits in my desk drawer at work. I use it on a small buck stockman that I use for opening letters and stuff. The buck doesnt sharpen on a crock stick very well.
We are way out of the dark ages when it comes to stones sharpening knives.
Better you get a knife that is the right size, weight, and carrying system.
Good Luck
Jack

The General · Oct 10, 2002

Thanks Cliff, your comments are most insightful and appeciated!

As to carrying a sharpening system, my Gerber BMF has a diamond stone in the sheath

Seriously though, DMT sell the Diamond Duostone (Fine and Course I think is best)which weighs very little and is perfect for the task. The course removes lots of stock and the fine side gives a very servicable edge (not a shaving sharp edge, but in the woods is hardly the place for such an edge is it?

)

There can be no excuse unless you cannot sharpen freehand

!

Ray Meers manages with a 4" O1 steel fixed blade for most tasks and he has been in more survival situations than I have had hot dinners.

The General · Oct 10, 2002

One last thing I forgot to add, I bet many true survival experts look on in amazement at the range of so called survival knives and wince at some of the rubbish available to buy today.

A friend of mine thinks his 420J2 'Rambo copy' knife from that horrible company that make those weird fantesy blades is the bee's and ee's

All I can do is look interested and laugh inside. He's not the type to believe you when you tell him he wasted his money on a mantle piece paper weight:barf: !!!

Even my Gerber BMF is not what I would consider the ideal knife for a camping trip (440a)
Sure it looks good and is well made, and looks a lot better after I gave it a satin hand rubbed finish, but I will use other blades first.

frank k · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
Maatweb lists it at 0.15%, but there are different types and specs are generally loose in the sense that you don't get the exact same melt from one manufacturer to the other. Back to the hardness issue, I would be very interested to see any hardness testing on production AISI 420 blades (not 420HC) that showed hardness levels of ~55 RC.

I don't know about Maatweb, but the AISI specs are 0.15% C MAX. for AISI 410 and over 0.15% for AISI 420.

See Metallurgy 5 th edition, Johnson/Weeks/Anderson ISBN 0-8269-3482-x pages 242-243 for the information on cutlery grade 420 (0.35%C).

As quenched or after tempering? And how many people using AISI 420, which is chosen mainly for cost cutting properties, are coming close to its max potential? Getting specific, Wilson uses a 0.5% version of 420HC and it quenches at 57/58 and after tempering is 54/55 RC.

Buck heat treats their 420HC to get a hardness of 58Rc after tempering.

-Frank

Jack142 · Oct 10, 2002

General,
I gotta add to your reply about rubbish knives. We would go in and talk to differant boy scout groups, about backpacking and survival etc. It never failed at least on kid in each troop had one of those cheap "rambo" knives that the compass didnt work, and after a little bit of use the knife broke at the tang. My dad, god love him, bought 2 of them for my boys, One of the knives is still sitting never used in my barn. It always amazed me how cheap they were.
On a differant note, I got a cold steel srk. It really feels good. I like the soft handle, especially, bare handed in the cold. I am thinking of giving the knife to one of my boys. He does a lot of rock climbing and likes the knife. In my opinion, this is a good survival knife.
Jack

frank k · Oct 10, 2002

Cliff,

Here is some more info on AISI 420 "mold quality" with 0.38%C, which I turned up in on a very quick Google search -

http://www.nessteel.com/420tech12.htm

Note that hardness of upto 56Rc (+/-2Rc) can be obtained before tempering and 53RC after. A cyro treatment should allow a bit higher
Rc after tempering.

-Frank

Eric_Draven · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
Owen, the main form of blunting when chopping wood is due to deformation. The edge will relax back from the deformed state over time. The more frequently you rest, and the more skilled you are, the more significant this effect will be.

-Cliff

That is an interesting theory Cliff. It is not something that I have seen. I just used my Victorinox Tinker SAK to cut up a tin can, purposefully rolling the edge (which was quite thin to begin with, I had thinned it out to about 10 degrees per side on my belt grinder, then applied a 15 degree side secondary bevel on it.)

I am gonna stick it in my desk drawer and let it rest for 24 hours. When I take it out of the drawer tommorow, will the edge be sharp again? Will the edge have relaxed back from the deformed state over time? I am quite skilled at resting, and do so often, as I am kinda lazy. So given this level of resting skill my knife should be razor sharp right?

Hmmmm, maybe if the knife sharpening fairy comes and pays a visit it will be, other than that I doubt it.

Actually I was interested in this sharpening on a rock thing for a while, while it can be done with soft blades (like machetes) on harder blades there are way better means, as Cliff indicated. A simple piece of glass (which is harder than steel) will easily work to align an edge, in fact my grandfather used to "steel" his knife on his car window.

The best improvised way to sharpen a knife, is as Cliff mentioned, to use a belt or pack strap and some fine abbrassive to strop with (river silt is very fine and works well.)

Highly alloyed steels are much harder to sharpen in this manner, as the abbrasives are simply not hard enough to effectively cut the carbides (look at the vanadium carbides in D2, pretty hard stuff.)

While it can be done, you're not gonna get the edge you will on an edgepro, that is for sure.

To answer the original question, the best stainless steels for your use, imho, are Sandvik steel as found on the Mora line by Frost's and Errikson and the Stainless used by Victorinox in their line of knives. Both are easy to sharpen, and take a very fine edge.

W.T. Beck · Oct 10, 2002

Some have mentioned 440C as a good choice. I just got a 440C Timeberline Zambezi from Knife Outlet. I absolutely love the handle -one of the best I have ever found.

The sheath is another matter. It has a button which must be depressed to release the knife, and I have not so far been able to find an easy way to operate it. It is hard to push with the knife hanging from my belt. The button is not really necessary as
there is a strap to go around the handle. I will probably cut the damned thing off, and rely on the strap to hold the knife in place.

Steelhed · Oct 10, 2002

Stainless, smainless, sisk boom blah! The best survival knife is the one you have with you. Super expensive knives tend to stay in drawers or locked gun cabinets. Super cheap knives end up in the trash can. For me, the best survival knife comes in a sheath that sports a little pouch on the front. This pouch holds a small diamond hone - medium grit. With such a hone, the choice of steel type becomes less problematic. Use stainless if you so desire, but don't believe stainless steels are better than non stainless steels for any application except long exposure to salt water. Even then, I would opt for titanium, Stellite or Talonite, in that order. My personal favorite "survival" knife as of this writing is an out of the box Swamp Rat Knives Camp Tramp. It replaced my Busse Basic #7 for no other reason than I like the Tramp's dual convex edge versus the Basic's asymetrical edge. Once I have the Basic's edge reground to dual convex it will probably go back in my survival kit. Why? I like the 7 inch blade, the steel's toughness, and it is fairly resistant to corrosion. If I lose my hone, I can smear glacial silt or fine sand on peeled birch bark or the fabric from an article of clothing and strop a usable edge. Don't get me wrong, I have and use a Falkniven A1 and I had a Becker Campion. Both are good knives, but in the end I just like the feel and performance of the Busse and Camp Tramp.

All that said, do I usually carry my survival pack with me? No. I usually take it with me on camping trips and any time I fly into the Alaska bush. Normally, I carry a large folder because carrying a fixed blade does not always fit well with my job (sheeple start squirming). Most of my folders sport stainless blades, so I can't say I have a total anti-stainless bias. In a pinch I would use any of them to help me out of a bad situation.

Cliff Stamp · Oct 11, 2002

Frank :

Note that hardness of upto 56Rc (+/-2Rc) can be obtained before tempering and 53RC after. A cyro treatment should allow a bit higher Rc after tempering.

53 RC after tempering on 0.38% C 420 is what I would expect as Wilson uses a grade a few C point higher and gets a few more hardness points. However for production knives I would look at this as a limit which is going to be rarely achieved.

Most companies using 420 for knives do so because it is cheap, and I doubt they have high great heat treating equipment or do so in an optimal manner, as well I doubt that the steel type is inherently of higher grade, nor is the carbon content that high. I would expect the hardness to be 45-50 in typical "420" stainless knives.

Eric :

It is not something that I have seen.

Of course you have, you have never bent anything and seen it spring back to true? The same thing will happen to knife edges. How much of an effect his has depends on the extent of the rolling you induced and how much of a factor that was in the overall blunting.

If the edge suffered significant wear, fracture of corrosion for example, the edge relaxation will be swamped out and not noticed. This relaxation property of the materials is call the Resilience. It is the ability to store energy when elastically deformed and then release it when the load is removed.

[edge roll after tin can cutting]

I am gonna stick it in my desk drawer and let it rest for 24 hours. When I take it out of the drawer tommorow,
will the edge be sharp again?

The blunting is too extensive for the relaxation to have a significant effect, not to mention that you have induced significant metal wear from the edge and have passed the elastic limit of the material in the bulk of the edge.

-Cliff