Which Steel Has the Best Edge Retention?

[Willie71]

I wasn’t writing specifically about that, but yes you can’t just look at a composition and guess what carbides are going to form. Different elements are “stronger” carbide formers than others, and the elements can interact in unexpected ways.

Is some of that is due to the temp at the time? For example, at xxxxf you will see an affinity for chromium, and at yyyyf you will see an affinity for vanadium? Secondly, is there a change in affinity if converting from pearlier rather than Martensite or other structures?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have done several yanagi-ba in Hitachi white #2 with an edge between 15 and 20 degrees ( inclusive) and had great results. Rockwell was between 63 and 65.

 

[Larrin]

Is some of that is due to the temp at the time? For example, at xxxxf you will see an affinity for chromium, and at yyyyf you will see an affinity for vanadium? Secondly, is there a change in affinity if converting from pearlier rather than Martensite or other structures?

To some extent, yes, though with knife steels the primary carbides are forming at very high temperatures. Many of the carbides are forming in the liquid and therefore stable at any temperature where the steel is solid. Not much you can do to them at that point other than large forging reductions. Usually the stronger carbide elements form the carbides at higher temperatures leaving other elements to take up the rest after they are done.

 

[Cycletroll]

Excellent article Larrin!
Gives empirical explanation for why my 52100 Mille is such an excellent performer!
Now if only I could stop it from oxidizing so readily

 

[Willie71]

To some extent, yes, though with knife steels the primary carbides are forming at very high temperatures. Many of the carbides are forming in the liquid and therefore stable at any temperature where the steel is solid. Not much you can do to them at that point other than large forging reductions. Usually the stronger carbide elements form the carbides at higher temperatures leaving other elements to take up the rest after they are done.

So no matter how much I forge 3v or z-wear (hypothetically) I won’t end up with a D2 carbide size? This is good to know. I would have to melt the steel and cast it to get that outcome. I want to try san Mai and simple Damascus patterns using z-wear or V4e as the core. I’m thinking 304/316 cladding.

 

[Larrin]

So no matter how much I forge 3v or z-wear (hypothetically) I won’t end up with a D2 carbide size? This is good to know. I would have to melt the steel and cast it to get that outcome. I want to try san Mai and simple Damascus patterns using z-wear or V4e as the core. I’m thinking 304/316 cladding.

Carbides will slowly grow when held at high temperature but you are unlikely to get to D2.

 

[samuraistuart]

What does the "Ref" represent, and what does it mean, on the far right column of the predicted carbide % chart? thank you.

 

[Larrin]

What does the "Ref" represent, and what does it mean, on the far right column of the predicted carbide % chart? thank you.

Reference

 

[Natlek]

I’ve gone 9dps with W2, Aeb-l, and z-wear. Cutting performance with fine edges like this is pretty impressive.

Thickness behind the edge ?

 

[scott.livesey]

Thickness behind the edge ?

with O1 and 1.2519, 8* dps, FFG, 0.025" 1/2" above edge

 

[DeadboxHero]

Oh Josh

I don't understand


Is it Difficulty knowing how and where to plug the numbers into the formula?

Did you read the article? There is a lot of details in it, too many to just glance at it and speed read it. I myself have to always go back and read details.

What is the 13%?
"13% hard phase particles" refers to the MN type(Metal Nitride) Vanadium Nitrides.
Like the MC type (Metal Carbide) Vanadium Carbide but softer

You can see in the Vanax 35 spec sheet below the value for the "VN" (Vanadium Nitride) is listed for the steel as "9% MN type hard phase particles" which is the same value on the chart for Vanax 35

Hope that helps.

-Shawn

Wish I could man but I still don't understand how you got the 13 number for the vanadium nitrides... the highlighted section you posted on the data sheet just says it's 13% hard phase particles at 60rc. Thanks for trying to explain though

 

[Willie71]

Thickness behind the edge ?

0.002-.003”.

Edit: sorry, that’s thickness before sharpening. I haven’t checked the thickness behind the edge in a while.

 

[Lapedog]

Reference

Just curious about why I always hear about vanadium, niobium, tungsten and chromium carbides but hear virtually nothing about molybdenum carbide. Any idea how hard they are compared to these other carbides? Maybe on the rockwell c scale.

Googling this info has eluded me.

 

[Larrin]

Just curious about why I always hear about vanadium, niobium, tungsten and chromium carbides but hear virtually nothing about molybdenum carbide. Any idea how hard they are compared to these other carbides? Maybe on the rockwell c scale.

Googling this info has eluded me.

Molybdenum forms M6C carbides. It's in the carbide hardness chart in the article.

 

[Lapedog]

Molybdenum forms M6C carbides. It's in the carbide hardness chart in the article.

Thanks. I guess I have just read at least some stuff on the other carbides but find very little about Moolybdenum carbides anywhere.

 

[Larrin]

I have edited the article to more clearly state what “Ref” refers to in the chart.

 

[lanternnate]

I'm going to discuss carbon steel a little in Part 2. 7 degrees per side is pretty extreme for white steel but it might be possible.

Awesome. Looking forward to Part 2. Even us simple folk who don’t use “super steel” find these interesting.