Which steel rocks?

Well Spyderco offers complementary sharpening for the price of $5 which covers shipping and handling and they do a really good job. But really sharpening with a Spyderco Sharpmaker is very easy, pretty much fool proof, if you start with a well profiled knife and don't let it get too dull. The Spyderco knives obviously have a suitable geometry. So if you go with a Spyderco knife+Sharpmaker, it really doesn't matter how many animals you skin (the Sharpmaker can also be carried and used in the field), you should be set for life. You can chose between a steel that has higher abrasion resistance which equates to longer edgeholding *on abrasive materials* but takes longer to sharpen, or something a little quicker to sharpen with a little lower abrasion resistance. VG-10 and S30V come to mind. If you want a fixed blade, look at BRKT, they use A2 which has limited abrasion resistance but is quite tough and very easy to sharpen.

If you want to go custom I would follow Cliffs advises and look for a maker that uses carbide rich steels at high hardness such as Phil Wilsons 10V.
 
You mean knife makers don't tell the truth and the whole truth about their knives - I am shocked you would suggest such a thing.
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In general while it would not surprise me if Mayo's references were exaggerated, it would not suprise me either if they were not.
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I'm not questioning Mayo himself.
After all, he is only repeating what some hunters have told him.
I'm skeptical of the claims made by the hunters.

I could e-mail Sal Glesser and claim to have whittled a full-sized oak tree into toothpicks, using a Delica, without needing to sharpen the blade.
If Sal passes along my claim, then he is not the liar, I am.
 
HoB said:
.... look for a maker that uses carbide rich steels at high hardness such as Phil Wilsons 10V.
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Making sure that the geometry well matches the steel, that knife should be ground very thin, 0.005" and at a decent angle, 10-15 degrees per side.

[D2]

barrabas74 said:
it has large carbides(if I am wrong correct me) that have a real toothy edge and cut through meat and hide very nicely.
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The carbides in D2 are very large, Talonite and 440C are similar with about 50 micron primary carbides. Generally however cutting ability on a slice is more about edge finish. 52100 for example at a rougher finish will outslice D2 at a finer finish. The large amount of carbides in D2 however give the blade more slicing edge retention at relatively low sharpness and high edge angles.

allenC said:
I could e-mail Sal Glesser and claim to have whittled a full-sized oak tree into toothpicks, using a Delica, without needing to sharpen the blade.
If Sal passes along my claim, then he is not the liar, I am.
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If a maker is using information to promote a product it would be reasonable to confirm its truth or otherwise not use it. Consider critical user statements and their maker responce. If a maker takes one approach on positive data and another on negative data then that is very much lying by defination because they are intentionally biasing the data to create a false impression.

-Cliff
 
If a maker is using information to promote a product it would be reasonable to confirm its truth or otherwise not use it. Consider critical user statements and their maker responce. If a maker takes one approach on positive data and another on negative data then that is very much lying by defination because they are intentionally biasing the data to create a false impression.
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I agree with this statement 100%.

However, I can't see how such claims from any specific hunter could be proven beyond doubt.

If Mayo chooses to believe and trust a specific hunter, then that's his right to do so.
But I remain very skeptical of guys claiming to skin 40-60 animals with one knife and no sharpening.

On the other hand, they never said what condition the game or hide was in after the skinning.:rolleyes:
I mean it is probably possible to skin an animal with a dull rock, but why would anyone want to?
Especially when there are "idiot proof" sharpeners available these days.
 
Was Mayo talking about Talonite TNTs? For just skinning, maybe the edge could hold out that long. At least no edge loss from corrosion.
 
hardheart said:
Was Mayo talking about Talonite TNTs?
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440V, Mayo was in fact fairly critical of Stellite before the Talonite fad exploded :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=858976&postcount=4

allenC said:
However, I can't see how such claims from any specific hunter could be proven beyond doubt.
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You need to determine if they (a) have the ability to discriminate and (b) will tell the truth. Make a "prototype" in 440C and ask them to evaluate it and tell them it is a new steel and the lab tests show it to be better than whatever hot steel you are currently using. There is a large body of scientific method designed for exactly this purpose, to enable gathering robust data from easily biased sources.

Now if you don't want to take steps to validate the claims then fine, but once you start to use some statement/claim to promote your product publically in that manner "This is a great steel, one of my customers ..." you are then giving that statement your endorsement of truth and are then just as responsible as the source of the information as to its veracity.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I think you just re-enforced my point.
But I'll amend my original answer to the original question just for the sake of clarity....

There is simply NO steel that will last a whole hunting season, CONSISTANTLY and RELIABLY, without getting dull.

So, again, I suggest that rrutledge1 should get himself a Spyderco Sharpmaker.

Cheers,
Allen.
 
For low maintenace and edge holding, either CPM S90V heat treated to HRC 61-62 or ZDP-189 heat treated to HRC 67-68 will work well.

For cheaper materials, D2 heat treated to HRC 61 is a good choice.
 
If you can't sharpen worth beans then maybe you can't take care of your knife beans either. In that case maybe some H1 totally rustless steel would be a consideration. It sharpens real easy too....at least for this sharpening idiot. But I bought a sharpmaker. ;)
 
allenC said:
There is simply NO steel that will last a whole hunting season, CONSISTANTLY and RELIABLY, without getting dull.
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Locally it would not only be possible but easy because getting a large game permit isn't easy and the number of animals you can take, unless you are poaching, is very small (meaning 1-2). It also depends on the skill and method of the user. Does the blade make heavy contact with bone, is there any direct bone cutting, do the animals have thick and dirty hides, is a lot of the hide cut or are there a small number of incisions and the hide just pulled or flayed off. If you can restrict the cutting to just meat then the amount that can be cut before a blade needs to be sharpened would be extremely high.

When I first read Mayo's comments I was curious and discussed it with relatives who hunt moose, bear and caribou. They related for example easily taking a leatherman and skinning and butchering a moose without having to sharpen. I know that the edges were also not optomized so it would be reasonable to assume this isn't the optimal performance of that knife and as well you could go much further with steels with more optomized properties. However these are individuals who are very skilled, minimal amounts of cuts made through the hide, no bone cutting, no heavy bone contact, joints are broken, connective tissues cut, etc., inuit style.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
Believe what you want.
I'm not trying to convert you.

Still, I think that rrutledge1 would be better off if he learned how to sharpen a knife.
Do you disagee?
 
allenC said:
Still, I think that rrutledge1 would be better off if he learned how to sharpen a knife.
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The problem is that too many people promote it as being far too difficult, requires power equipment, jigs, etc. . Quite frankly if you have the skill/knowledge to kill a large animal then what is required to actually sharpen a knife is trivial in comparison. However if it really seems too intimidating to take a high end knife to a stone then just start off with a smooth steel while you practice on a cheap knife. The amount of meat that can be cut before steeling isn't effective is extremely high and it is difficult to damage a knife by steeling unless you chop the knife into the rods or do something equally silly.

-Cliff
 
ruttledge,
How long will an edge last? Depends on the user, what he is cutting, how the blade is ground and sharpened, the hardness and the steel grade. Pretty much in that order I think. It also very much depends on how fussy you are about sharp.
I have been hunting elk for the last 8 years with Weathered Horn outfitters in Utah. I missed last year but have been going to get a cow elk for meat in previous years and in 2004 splurged and went for a bull. I do most of the knife work on these trips so I can field test knives I make. Four of the guides have my knives one is 90v and 3 are 10V. I check with these guys on how the knives are doing from time to time. They all are pretty good at sharpening so what they report I think would be pretty typical of hard field use. In 2004 when I got to camp I asked one of them how his knife (10V) was doing. He said great and so far he had field dressed and skinned 4 bull elk with it. I asked to see the knife and it was dull by my standards. I tried it on cardboard and it sliced ok but not cleanly. He was ready to use it again on the next elk. I can see how if you are not too fussy about sharp, a knife could last on many animals. I used a 4 inch CPM 90V blade on the bull I got in 2004. There was snow on the ground and I got it down in a draw and he rolled down through the snow and mud. We had to quarter it so the pcs would fit on the ATV’s. The guide and I both worked on this one since it was getting dark and cold and time to get out of there. The next day I finished skinning the quarters and carcass and boned out all the meat. I used the same knife for most of it but did use a fillet knife to do some trimming work. When I was done with all that the knife was dull. You could say that this knife was only good for one elk under these conditions (mud and dirt on the hide) but that’s by my standards. It was sharp again with just a few strokes on the SC stone. A white tail in the woods that was down on leaves or grass would be much cleaner and I could see how a blade could stay sharp a long time with that kind of work. I think you can compare the knife strokes needed for skinning a deer to be comparable to slicing cardboard. If that is the case then with CPM 30V for example you can cut hundreds of feet of cardboard before you notice it getting dull. That would be a lot of deer.
This is a little bit of a hunting story combined with some actual field use. Maybe helps to put some perspective on the whole question of how long a blade can stay sharp and which steel is best. “It depends”

Phil
 
Phil Wilson said:
He said great and so far he had field dressed and skinned 4 bull elk with it. I asked to see the knife and it was dull by my standards. I tried it on cardboard and it sliced ok but not cleanly. He was ready to use it again on the next elk. I can see how if you are not too fussy about sharp, a knife could last on many animals.
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Thanks for the details Phil. If I am preparing fish or meat I will sharpen as soon as I have to use any significant sawing motion. But in general most people who don't sharpen will squeeze every last bit of cutting action out of the knife. I have sharpened many knives for hunters and fisherman and they will basically use them to the point there is no cutting action left even with an aggressive sawing motion. Similar with kitchen knives, I sharpen the inexpensive ones about once every few weeks with just a few passes on a 600 DMT rod. I regrind the edge usually less than yearly. However the same type of knife when own by a friend who doesn't sharpen, comes back to me to sharpen less than yearly and is bowling ball smooth at that time. Many times it is actually several years inbetween sharpening and they are still using it all that time.

-Cliff
 
Thanks to everyone for the time and feedback. The animals I hunt are large and tough-skinned by the lower-48 state standard and all seem to love their dust-baths or mud-wallows in NM. Over the years I've collected some knives and even still have the Case my father gave me as a kid. I've always been able to sharpen them to what the old Texicans called a "paper-edge". It'll cut great but lose it's edge in record time so I know I can't maintain holding the blade at the right angle. I'll just have to get back on that horse because EVERY one of the replies I've received have mentioned it. I sure appreciate everyones' time though. As a newbie to this website, I am very honored to be a member of such a knowledgeable and helpful group of folks.
 
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