Which steel?

T

TexasWade

Joined
Sep 8, 2015
Messages
132
I've been thinking of making a knife that would have a thin hollow ground blade and I'd want it to be tough enough to survive a little abuse. Not extreme batoning stuff but suitable for most typical EDC chores with a bit of safety margin left over.

I've been looking around a little and it seems like CPM-10V might be good? Also because of the flexibility I looked at some filet knives and found one made from 8CR13MOV so that should be suitable as well. I'm probably not terribly concerned about corrosion as the knife would be well cared for. Stainless would be a bonus, but edge holding ability and toughness would be my primary requirements. I might prefer better edge holding than 8CR13MOV if I can get there within reason.

The knife would probably be in the neighborhood of 3.25" blade length, 1.0" edge to spine, and hollow ground with a bit of a drop point. Only about .080-.090" thick with about a .012-.015" edge grind so anything brittle would be out of the question.

For comparison, my Benchmade Mini Griptilian and Mini Baretta are both .100" thick, .020" at the edge 2.9" blade length and just under 1.0" wide.
 
I'm not trying to be condescending or mean with anything I say, but it sounds like you're jumping into the deep end without much background here. 10V and 8cr13mov are very, very different. 10V is a very expensive powder metallurgy carbon steel with incredible wear resistance and a complicated heat treat protocol. 8cr13mov is a midrange to lowend Chinese stainless that's roughly analogous to 440B or AUS8 or maybe 6.

It honestly sounds like you don't have much experience working with these kind of metals and I would humbly suggest that you start with a low alloy carbon like 1095. It's inexpensive, not terribly difficult to work with, not ridiculous to heat treat and easily available.

Honestly, I would look into the knife making subforums as there is a TON of information on the stickies and the members are helpful and include some truly incredible craftsmen.

All that said, if you just want me to shut up and give some steel recommendations, I would look at CPM-4V, Vanadis 4E, CPM-M4 and PD1.
 
There's no "shut up" needed man!

I actually built about 30 folders around 1990-1992 and did my own heat treat and hardness testing. I feel that I made a high quality product at the time but life took me in a different direction so I've been out of touch for nearly 25 years. When I was doing this stuff I used 440C, D2 and ATS-34, but now there are tons of options I'd never heard of.

CPM-10V was just out and I wanted to try it, so I suppose that one caught my interest when I saw it mentioned in a somewhat relevant thread. The 8CR13MOV I got from looking up filet knives, which I figured would have requirements similar to what I'm wanting to do.

I appreciate any constructive input and will be happy to do some searches on the steels you listed.


Forgot to mention that since I don't have access to that heat treat oven and hardness tester these days, I'll be sending my stuff out for professional heat treating. Cost won't be much of a concern.
 
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If you're looking at a balanced steel, one that will light baton to cut potatoes, I think 3V is a fantastic choice. Also in the same bloodline is PD1, or Z wear. Cry Wear is another great option. These are non stainless tool steels, so the steel care is an end user responsibility, but they are fantastic in their versatility.
 
TexasWade said:
When I was doing this stuff I used 440C, D2 and ATS-34, but now there are tons of options I'd never heard of.
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Since you have used ATS-34 go with RWL-34. The powdered version of ATS-34 or you can go with CPM-154 the powdered version of 154CM. For me, RWL-34 is the perfect blend of properties.
 
Thanks much for the input guys. Not to disregard what anyone has mentioned, but while researching all that has been mentioned I've come across something that hasn't been mentioned. Seems like for what I want to do, AEB-L has a lot to offer and I'm going to give that a shot. After that one is done I can always try out some other stuff too!
 
For just getting back into it, it seems that steels like A2 and O1 might be good ones that offer toughness without elaborate heat treat protocols. Or even mundane steels like 1095. 3V, 52100 and AEB-L seem to be good steels too but I don't know about the heat treat part. I think it's difficult to find a stainless steel that has good toughness, Elmax is one I've read about that I thought was supposed to have good toughness.
 
The heat treatment is actually one of the deciding factors on this one. Since I don't have the heat treating equipment anymore I'll be sending it off to Peters'. They seem to have an excellent reputation particularly with this steel. Also it seems the AEB-L is more stable during heat treatment than some and I can send out a blade with .015" edge thickness with a reasonable hope of it coming back straight. Being able to do all of my blade shaping before heat treat is of interest because I've been doing CNC machining for the last 20 years or so and am eager to try machining some blades. When I get to that point, I'll probably send some machined and some flat so I'll have the option to grind from flat if needed.

What got me away from making knives in the first place was starting a machine shop in my garage while also having a 2 year old and a baby on the way. Had to take care of family and business, not play around with knives ;) Now several hobbies have come and gone, two ex-wives out of the picture and the kids all grown up I'm about ready to try some knife stuff that I never could do back in the day when it was all by hand in my garage.
 
Not sure if you're taking recommendations any more but if you are, cpm 20cv would be my choice.

Legendary in terms of edge holding with very reasonable toughness!
 
Done deal! I gave myself a $100 budget and ordered up a variety of stuff from AKS. I'll make up some simple blades and a bolt-on handle to test them.

I bought roughly .10 X 1.5 X 12" of each of the following:
CPM 3V
CPM M4
Z-Wear
AEB-L
CPM154
CPM 20CV

The heat treating charges will probably wear out my wallet but I'm looking forward to abusing some blades soon. Should be fun!
 
You got all that for $100? I have never looked into steels, so I really have no idea how much raw bar stock costs, but $100 seems really low. Is that a typo or can you really get exotic steels like that on the cheap?
 
CPM3V, A2 and 52100 would be the steels I would choose in your situation.
 
Ccc said:
You got all that for $100? I have never looked into steels, so I really have no idea how much raw bar stock costs, but $100 seems really low. Is that a typo or can you really get exotic steels like that on the cheap?
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Yep, $99.00 total plus the girl on the phone said about 7 or 8 bucks shipping. I don't know if it's kosher to post the pricing here in the forum but figure roughly 15-20 bucks per item except for the AEB-L. That was only 5 bucks so I bought 3 of em ;)
 
TexasWade said:
The heat treatment is actually one of the deciding factors on this one. Since I don't have the heat treating equipment anymore I'll be sending it off to Peters'. They seem to have an excellent reputation particularly with this steel. Also it seems the AEB-L is more stable during heat treatment than some and I can send out a blade with .015" edge thickness with a reasonable hope of it coming back straight. Being able to do all of my blade shaping before heat treat is of interest because I've been doing CNC machining for the last 20 years or so and am eager to try machining some blades. When I get to that point, I'll probably send some machined and some flat so I'll have the option to grind from flat if needed.

What got me away from making knives in the first place was starting a machine shop in my garage while also having a 2 year old and a baby on the way. Had to take care of family and business, not play around with knives ;) Now several hobbies have come and gone, two ex-wives out of the picture and the kids all grown up I'm about ready to try some knife stuff that I never could do back in the day when it was all by hand in my garage.
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Ask for stress removal and plate quench if you are going to do pregrinding. A lot of people have gone to post heat treat grinding with AEB-L because it has warped on them. Plate quenches are awesome and you limit the chances of warpage. A lot of knife makers now plate quench everything for that reason.
 
What a cool thread TexasWade! Please keep us posted on the progress and eventual blade testing. Would be really cool to see the difference in blade steel performance granted all other variables (blade geometry, blade design, etc) are all controlled and steel/heat treat the only varying factor. Might be even cool to test that pregrind vs postgrind heat treat theory of Marthinus. May be the best $5 you ever spent for the experience. I always think you learn more if you take the time to analyze the how and the why of the failure and can parlay that experience in future endeavors.

Good luck buddy!
 
TexasWade said:
Done deal! I gave myself a $100 budget and ordered up a variety of stuff from AKS. I'll make up some simple blades and a bolt-on handle to test them.

I bought roughly .10 X 1.5 X 12" of each of the following:
CPM 3V
CPM M4
Z-Wear
AEB-L
CPM154
CPM 20CV

The heat treating charges will probably wear out my wallet but I'm looking forward to abusing some blades soon. Should be fun!
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It'd be awesome to see a head to head comparison of those steels in the exact same shape heat treated by someone like Peter's doing some rough work and how the edges hold up. There are plenty of tests comparing the wear resistance but not much out there concerning rough use. There are a lot of electricians and plumbers and whatnot that cut much more than rope. If AEBL at 63 RC could withstand cutting into ductwork better than M4 or 20CV at, say 60 RC or 3V at 59 RC that might make some eyes really pop open.
 
That sounds like a great tip marthinus, I'll get in touch with Peters' heat treaters and put together a plan before I cut anything.

stog75, I'm hoping I can pregrind everything so I can keep the variables to a minimum. That is, if I can get away with it the batch will be completely milled to shape leaving only minimal finish work. I already modeled the blade in Mastercam and made the CNC programs to cut it *evil laughter*... The steel should be here in a couple days so I could actually be cutting blades this weekend.

I guess I'll also need to buy a wicked edge or similar sharpener so I can accurately put the same edge on all blades. I can put a real nice edge on by hand with a belt grinder but no doubt it varies by a couple degrees. Great for using but not so great for head-to-head testing...
 
bodog said:
It'd be awesome to see a head to head comparison of those steels in the exact same shape heat treated by someone like Peter's doing some rough work and how the edges hold up. There are plenty of tests comparing the wear resistance but not much out there concerning rough use. There are a lot of electricians and plumbers and whatnot that cut much more than rope. If AEBL at 63 RC could withstand cutting into ductwork better than M4 or 20CV at, say 60 RC or 3V at 59 RC that might make some eyes really pop open.
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Exactly!

One thing I have also thought about is mounting the blades on a lever rig like the old school paper cutters and using that instead of just relying on my wrist. I'm also thinking the blade should be mounted 2 or 3 degrees off vertical on the test rig to simulate the inaccuracies of normal hand cutting. I guess after I get the blades ready I'll post a thread asking for test suggestions. The duct thing sounds like a good possibility.
 
The price quote from Peters looks good and they're good with all these steels coming to them with .015" edge thickness. The project is definitely a GO. I'll have a new thread for the project as it develops since I've changed focus since the original post.
 
Seriously looking forward to it. Having a work in progress thread would also be really interesting.
 
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