Which steels benefit from a coarser, toothier edge?

Obsessed with Edges said:
When I refer to 'toothy', I mean an edge with more noticeable slicing 'bite' that can be felt at the fingertips or detected in how the edge immediately grabs at first contact, in a slicing cut. More about cutting aggression, as opposed to the actual grit finish.
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That's an interesting definition which appears to equally apply to a finely polished edge. I don't think it actually falls in line with the common usage of the word. I can see how someone might connect the words "toothy" and "bite" like that, but I don't see them as being so directly related in that way. To me a bite is just how readily the knife can start a cut. It's a term related to sharpness. A knife with no bite simply isn't sharp enough for the job.

I'll go ahead supply my own definition, for whatever it's worth. To me the way to achieve a toothy edge is to use a coarse stone and sharpen such that you get a pattern going in the direction of the back of the bevel to the apex, not unlike how wood fibers run in parallel form a grain in a specific direction. These lines form an uneven pattern with tiny peaks and valleys along the bevel that makes the edge "toothy".

That's how I see it anyway. Other people probably have their own definitions.
 
Guy McVer said:
That's an interesting definition which appears to equally apply to a finely polished edge. I don't think it actually falls in line with the common usage of the word. I can see how someone might connect the words "toothy" and "bite" like that, but I don't see them as being so directly related in that way. To me a bite is just how readily the knife can start a cut. It's a term related to sharpness. A knife with no bite simply isn't sharp enough for the job.

I'll go ahead supply my own definition, for whatever it's worth. To me the way to achieve a toothy edge is to use a coarse stone and sharpen such that you get a pattern going in the direction of the back of the bevel to the apex, not unlike how wood fibers run in parallel form a grain in a specific direction. These lines form an uneven pattern with tiny peaks and valleys along the bevel that makes the edge "toothy".

That's how I see it anyway. Other people probably have their own definitions.
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I do believe that so many of these things are subjective to each user, depending on their personal frame of reference. So it's good to hear, in detail, what each of us means when we describe a concept like 'toothy' or 'polished' or 'aggressive' or whatever. I have to catch myself in making assumptions about what one means exactly, when they're describing an edge using such terms. I'd likely assume something different than what each individual might actually mean in their own description. And if ten or twenty of us tried to describe each term as they each perceive it, we'd likely get 10-20 different frames of reference and different 'meaning' for the same term.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I do believe that so many of these things are subjective to each user, depending on their personal frame of reference. So it's good to hear, in detail, what each of us means when we describe a concept like 'toothy' or 'polished' or 'aggressive' or whatever. I have to catch myself in making assumptions about what one means exactly, when they're describing an edge using such terms. I'd likely assume something different than what each individual might actually mean in their own description. And if ten or twenty of us tried to describe each term as they each perceive it, we'd likely get 10-20 different frames of reference and different 'meaning' for the same term.
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It's always tricky in any subject because people can have so many different definitions of something and they think they're talking about the same things but even a minor variation in the way two people conceptualize something can lead to wildly different interpretations and misunderstandings.

When I see someone else say "toothy", I usually take it to mean an edge which is at the very least rough to the point that it has an abrasive effect on whatever it is that you cut with it, such that this effect is beneficial in some way to the performance of the knife. As you can see, this is a little different from what my own definition of the word is, or what I think of as "proper" toothiness.

It's so easy to create misunderstandings because of these differences. It's also impractical to constantly define your terms every single time you want to have a discussion. There's a lesson here somewhere, but I haven't had lunch yet.

Brain. need. food.
 
chalby said:
FEPA-F 1200 is more like 4K JIS according to the grit chart on this forum, but I agree otherwise.

I've got the Venev Alpha Centauri stones(I think that is what they are called). F240, F400, F800, F1200. I most often finish on the F400(something like 600-700 JIS) and deburr on a finer one and that works pretty well for me, but some steels like ZDP 189 I like finishing on the 800(2K JIS) and it seems to work pretty well. "Toothy" is a pretty wide range though IMO. I would still consider 2 or 3K JIS pretty toothy.

Everyone's usage will differ though. I think the best thing for anybody is to try a few different edges and see what works for you.
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You are correct is more a like a 4K grit it has been awhile since I had to convert that stones grit and I did that one from memory.
 
Toothy = Teethy = Like a micro hacksaw blade ..
The coarser method off sharpening will leave groves in the steel that run all the way to the edge .. ( Teeth )
If you stop here , you have a toothy edge .

On the other hand , of you sharpen to say a fine 5000 grit oilstone finish ..
Then you will have what looks like a polished edge to the human eye ..
Put it under a Microscope , and it's still toothy ( Mini / micro / toothy )
It's just how it is . I'm not sure if we have progressed far enough ( technology ) to leave a actual Smooth / non scratched / grooved / surface behind after sharpening .
Cos the harder you look , the more McNasty the edge looks ( Magnification ) .
I supposed if you had a 50,000 grit surface to sharpen on (?) ....
Perhaps one day , they might develop some sort of acid sharpening that removes Microns and leaves behind a near perfect apex . Which could then be Titanium Nitride 'd for Uber hardness .. ( Maybe one day )
Oh! Maybe .... Diamond Nitride 'd ..

Sorry ! Just thinking about the possibilities !

So rough feeling cut VS smooth feeling cut .. ( Both edges cut , shave N do stuff we want )
Each knife will do what it does .. And the finish is not guaranteed !

I did a 80grit grind on VG10 and it was TOOTHY ! ( Maybe the most toothy 80 grit edge ever )
I did a 80 grit grind on SPY27 , and it's the smoothest 80 grit edge ever .
Buttery smooth thru paper . Slices like an olympic champion .. ( Just waiting on some decent weather to test it's edge retention )

Depending on the steel , the result will vary ! ( I'm really wanting some decent weather - low humidity ) It's killing me waiting to test the SPY27 with a 80 grit grind .
 
Alberta Ed said:
I find the M4 on my GB2 will take a very fine edge but that steel for whatever reason takes quite a bit of time and effort to hone, compared to S30V and similar powder steels.
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I think M4 is surprisingly easy to sharpen when comlared to its edge holding. It seems to like a fine edge more than a coarse edge, in my experience.
 
Alberta Ed said:
I find the M4 on my GB2 will take a very fine edge but that steel for whatever reason takes quite a bit of time and effort to hone, compared to S30V and similar powder steels.
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What sort of stones are you using, and in what progression, if you don't mind my asking?
 
I use my Venev stones on my M4 blades and I don't have any problem with it taking to long to sharpen with those stones,I think A Alberta Ed said along time ago that he use's DMT plates and I have found them them myself to be extremely slow cutting.
 
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