Which stones remove more metal?

How fast metal is removed is dependent on many things:

1 - HARDNESS of the grit, as compared to the hardness of the metal being ground upon.

2 - SHAPE of the abrasive grit doing the grinding - more angular, 'sharper' shapes will cut more aggressively than blockier or rounder shapes.

3 - SIZE of the grit doing the work - in simplest terms, a larger grain of hard, sharp grit will cut a deeper and wider trough into the metal being cut.

4 - TOUGHNESS of the grit doing the work - this refers to it's resistance to breaking or fracturing as it's working.

5 - WEAR RESISTANCE of the grit, which refers mainly to it's ability to maintain it's shape without dulling by abrasion.

6 - FRIABILITY of the grit, which is the tendency of individual grit grains to break down or fracture into smaller grains.

7 - LUBRICATION of the grit, which helps prevent clogging or accumulation of metal swarf as the work is being done. Also helps with cooling of the grit in powered grinding applications generating a lot of heat. With regard to heat, some abrasives are more stable and harder/longer-working at high temperatures than others will be.

8 - How the abrasive is bound or held together - the 'binder' for the grit can be designed to hold it firmly, as with a plated diamond hone, or to release worn grit more easily from the surface and expose fresh, sharp grit to keep the stone working aggressively (think of water stones in particular, and oil stones secondarily). With a plated diamond hone, the toughness and wear-resistance of the plating itself is a big factor in determining how well it holds onto the embedded grit. And the bond itself, between the grit and the plating, can vary in strength as well, which influences how long the plated hone will last and retain the grit.

In terms of hardness, the abrasive only needs to be somewhat harder than the material being cut. Extra hardness just allows the work to be done with a lighter touch to cut to a given depth (assuming other factors are equal, like size, shape, etc.). Anyone who's ever accidentally left some deep, ugly scratches on a blade with a featherlight, errant brush against a diamond hone will immediately understand this concept.

Friability is often designed deliberately to advantage with some abrasives (like aluminum oxide especially, and with silicon carbide to a narrower degree), allowing the grains to break down into smaller, but still sharp & jagged, cutting edges. Silicon carbide is inherently more brittle or friable in general - but some engineering tweaks can also make it a little less so, as desired, according to usage.

Between friability and the binders used, these are both factors influencing how a stone can be kept working without 'glazing' (dulling/polishing of the surface) or otherwise being worn out.

I'd like to see this posted as a sticky.

This comprehensive, concise, well-written info would have been very useful to me when I was starting to freehand sharpen. I eventually learned most of it, but it was in bits and pieces over a long period of time.
 
I am glad that I started a worthwhile thread. Even if I was not the one whom provided the worthwhile information. I have been collecting knives, Oh for about 70 years. However there are no doubt people in their 20's with more knowledge than myself here. I mean I did not even know this place. I do think this place is #1 though. Most people my age do not know how to turn on the computer. I am just glad to be here.
Anyhow any ACE should honor the $5.98 price on the largest Silicon stone. It should just ring up that price. ACE is good. It is not HD. I think I will get a couple more today for that price. Never know if I drop one or something. They are close by me. They know me. In fact, it might be less for ACE members.

It was very funny that I thought that fancy newfangled pull through was going to work. It honestly did not look anything like a regular pull through. I thought it would be great. Figures. So I destroyed A Small Sebenza 31 Unique. That is a loss. At least I did not put one of my customs through it. There are actually some that do work in a pinch. The Benchmade Yellow one. Dear lord do not touch an electric one. I just brought this up because I had started off with Tungsten Carbide. Those "V" shaped ones will not hesitate to instantly destroy a knife.

I really appreciate everyone that contributed to this thread. Thank you Guy's.
 
Questions on the Manticore:Should that be followed by a 120 grit to remove the coarse grind before attempting to final edge? My guess would be yes.
 
I like and use my Atoma 140 and XXC DMT but not for hogging off metal as quickly as I can freehand. When I first bought a ~120 grit diamond several years ago I was disappointed it didn't remove metal faster, even though I used more pressure than I should have, or would use now, since all diamond instructions I have read say to use light pressure. I've tried a few different abrasives around 120 grit, and lower, for quickly removing metal, including an 80 grit diamond and emery cloth as low as 50 grit. None of them worked nearly as well as the 60 grit Manticore. That worked so well I stopped experimenting.

Besides lower grit size, of course, I (as well as others here) found heavier sharpening pressure for quickly removing metal to be very important, just as light pressure is important in the finishing stages.

I'm just reporting what my results were with informal experimentation, done out of curiosity. As is said, YMMV.

If doing serious manual grinding I definitely reach more for the vitreous stone than diamond, and leaning on it a big part of that. If just resetting or lowering an angle the 140 Atoma is plenty fast and no need to lean on it, which avoids possibility of pressure burring.

All depends on the specifics, for really hogging off metal, a belt grinder is king. Is nice to have a few beast mode coarse stones as well, but in my case they are seldom used for actual edge work.
 
Questions on the Manticore:Should that be followed by a 120 grit to remove the coarse grind before attempting to final edge? My guess would be yes.
It really depends on how the edge looks when you are done.

If I keep going on the Manticore and let it mud up I could confidently go next to anywhere from 320 to 1K to refine it.

That is why I don’t use low grit diamond plates on my knives.
The scratches are way too deep for my liking.

SiC breaks down and becomes finer as you grind.
 
Questions on the Manticore:Should that be followed by a 120 grit to remove the coarse grind before attempting to final edge? My guess would be yes.

I like most of my edges on the toothy side. If I have done a re-profile or let a knife get too dull I will usually use the manticore then a 300 or medium natural knowing I won’t take all if the deep scratches out. If I want a finer edge I will work my way through a course grit then medium core and so on. You could do this on a medium or fine stone, but I. My experience it would take more time.
 
I get the impression here that Diamonds remove the most metal. With good reason. Nothing is harder than Diamonds. However many sharpener manufacturers would like us to think that Tungsten Carbide does. In my travels I have found that they are in fact correct. This would seem scientifically impossible. Why might it seem and they would like us to think Tungsten Carbide is harder? You would think to a blade full of Tungsten it would not even cut it at all. I am well aware that most of you would not touch Tungsten Carbide stones with a 20 foot pole. Why is that? Thank you
Diamonds ARE harder, but hardness of the abrasive is not the only factor.

With a diamond stone, your grinding off metal with an abrasive.
With carbide V-sharpener, you're slicing off a layer of steel all at once.

So the carbide IS faster, but leaves a low quality edge. It's wavy and uneven.

The happy medium is to start with a coarse diamond stone, on the back bevel, then use any kind of medium, then fine stone on the micro bevel.

If you want to really be fast, just use the diamond on the micro bevel, though that will leave a toothy and less durable cutting edge.
 
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