white paper on veg. oil quenchants

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elementfe

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http://www.industrialheating.com/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000001097301
There's some interesting stuff in here- not that I'm the guy to analyze it- seems to be saying that the plant oils they tested had much less vapor jacketing than the petroleum based oils, FWIW.
I'd think from a chemist's POV, a polymer is a polymer, and how it behaves might be more interesting than where it comes from.
Since I don't have a lab or time for much rigorous testing, I'll continue to take the advice of those that do! :-)
Andy G.
 
I enjoyed reading that. It helps to remind me, that the prevalent thinking on methods at any given time can not be implicitly subscribed to. Also, I'm sure the petroleum interests would rather industry continue to use their oil for quenchant basestock.
It was interesting to read how veg based quenchants transfer heat mainly by convection, and petroleum based quenchants transfer heat more unstably by vapor blanket boiling.

I hope that the various methods of inquiry into veg oil stabilization in the latter part of the paper prove fruitful. It sounds very promising, and I'd like to be able to use a long lasting fast quench oil not based on fossil fuels.

I kept thinking while reading it, "hey this really validates Tai's championing of canola." Not that he needs it, or that I EVER want to "agitate" another quenchant controversy.
 
elementfe said:
http://www.industrialheating.com/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000001097301
There's some interesting stuff in here- not that I'm the guy to analyze it- seems to be saying that the plant oils they tested had much less vapor jacketing than the petroleum based oils, FWIW.
I'd think from a chemist's POV, a polymer is a polymer, and how it behaves might be more interesting than where it comes from.
Since I don't have a lab or time for much rigorous testing, I'll continue to take the advice of those that do! :-)
Andy G.
Click to expand...

A similar paper was discussed here several months ago, with some very articulate points by Nathan, Stacy, Kevin, and others. Here's that discussion.
 
That's a good link in the OP.

Here’s the link from that other thread:
http://www.jtcustomknives.com/calendar/files/1/Vegetable Oil Quenchants.pdf

By comparison, petroleum oils are inherently slower because of the vapor jacket, and need cooling rate accelerators, at least part of which are to help defeat or shorten the duration of the vapor jacket,… whereas the vegetable oils do not need cooling rate accelerators, but do need additives or tweaking to improve their stability, in terms of industrial use... at least that's my interpretation.

It's is interesting though, how different people can read the same data and come up with much different conclusions.
 
I think this is particularly interesting:

"While both of the petroleum quench oils Microtemp 157 (T 157) and Microtemp 153B (T 153B) exhibited full-film boiling, this was typically not observed for any of the vegetable oils evaluated in this study. As expected, the Microtemp 157 slow oil exhibited a longer full-film boiling duration than did the Microtemp 153B fast oil. Furthermore, the Microtemp 153B fast oil exhibited a significantly higher maximum heat-transfer coefficient at a higher temperature than the Microtemp 157 slow oil and was comparable to the vegetable oils evaluated."

It seems to be saying that the fast petroleum based quenching oil was more comparable to the vegetable oils than the slow one.

... ... In other words, the vegetable oils are fast oils with a very direct and efficient cooling mechanism.
 
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I don't really use oil-quenching steel anymore, but for interest sake, I'd still be interested in a side-by-side, direct comparison of Parks, Houghton, and some of the various vegetable oils.
 
I need to read the information but I wonder what second classification canola would be in? (11 second, 28 second, etc... )
 
Tait said:
I don't really use oil-quenching steel anymore, but for interest sake, I'd still be interested in a side-by-side, direct comparison of Parks, Houghton, and some of the various vegetable oils.
Click to expand...


I don't know, but I think it's fairly safe to assume that the petroleum oils used in the studies were comparable to popular commercial quenching oils,... if not better. I haven't found any info., on Microtemp 157 (T 157) and Microtemp 153B (T 153B) yet though, other than they seem to be used in metallurgical studies a lot.
 
Reading farther, it seems that the development and optimization of veg oils is far behind that of petroleum oils. The pet. oils have been tweaked so different sections of the cooling curves suit the needs of quenching steel. The veg oils are still at a state where they are being manipulated to be a good "basestock." I would assume that they will then be tweaked further to achieve optimum cooling rates for different steels.

Imagine just using crude, or basic refined petroleum oils as quenching fluids. It wouldn't be optimal, even oils designed to cool and lubricate metals in automotive applications are not really suitable for quenching steels. It seems though that quenching with refined crude would be analogous to quenching with basic refined vegetable oils, as in these tests.

Sounds a bit like the auto industry, it's not like veg oil fuels can't run a car fine but it's only become a mainstream idea in the last 15 years or so. We as a society make momentous decisions about what direction to go with our technology and infrastructure- and once entrenched, it's very hard to change course. When I say "we as a society" I have no illusions about who steers these decisions.

It seems that they are pointing to the fact that veg oils cool by direct convection as a desirable and preferable characteristic, if only they can be stabilized against oxidation. Then that natural superiority could be exploited by using veg oil as a basestock, upon which subsequent modification can be carried out.

Sorry about the cluttered and somewhat redundant nature of this post, I edited a bit but lacked the energy to entirely re-write.
 
Salem Straub said:
It seems that they are pointing to the fact that veg oils cool by direct convection as a desirable and preferable characteristic, if only they can be stabilized against oxidation. Then that natural superiority could be exploited by using veg oil as a basestock, upon which subsequent modification can be carried out.
Click to expand...

Good conclusion.

Sounds like they might eventually need to slow down the vegetable oils to be more comparable to the slower un-accelerated petroleum oils. Maybe it isn’t as much of a problem as the stability issues though.
 
Salem Straub said:
....It seems that they are pointing to the fact that veg oils cool by direct convection as a desirable and preferable characteristic, if only they can be stabilized against oxidation. Then that natural superiority could be exploited by using veg oil as a basestock, upon which subsequent modification can be carried out....
Click to expand...

I'd also wonder if a thin cross section like a blade would matter as compared to half inch diameter round bar stock. It also seems like the direct convection cooling characteristic of vegetable oils is measured based no agitation, yet it's often recommended to quench blades with some degree of agitation or even recirculating quench tanks. Seems confusing and difficult to find apples to apples info comparison.
 
cdent said:
I'd also wonder if a thin cross section like a blade would matter as compared to half inch diameter round bar stock. It also seems like the direct convection cooling characteristic of vegetable oils is measured based no agitation, yet it's often recommended to quench blades with some degree of agitation or even recirculating quench tanks. Seems confusing and difficult to find apples to apples info comparison.
Click to expand...

Well yeah, it seems like agitation or circulation would also speed up the veggies, (take the heat away faster)... though probably not necessary for most steels/blades, if at all.

Houghton Bio Quench... There’s your stabilized industrial veggy right there.
If I thought it was worth it, that’s what I’d get, but doubt it would just for dozen or so 1095 blades per year.
 
Yeah, I recall looking into Bioquench a bit myself. Those are great documents, thanks Phil. I really like the idea of renewable biodegradable quench oil. Don't think I can spring for 55 gallons just now, though.
 
Me neither, but I think it's interesting to see the stuff is being worked with industrially. I suspect within decades, or years, this type of switch from fossil remnants to cultivated biologicals will become more forefront.
 
If I am not using water to quench...I only use vegetable oil. All of my old books reccomended it and I have found it works well for what I do with it. In my case, it comes from deep frying things like turkey and food so I get a bit of that when I quench come back, lol. I have to put the oil to use rather than toss it.
 
Salem Straub said:
Yeah, I recall looking into Bioquench a bit myself. Those are great documents, thanks Phil. I really like the idea of renewable biodegradable quench oil. Don't think I can spring for 55 gallons just now, though.
Click to expand...

For low volume shops, plain old off the shelf canola seems the most logical to me. I just don't make enough knives to justify springing for the stabilized stuff. If I was making even over 100 blades a per year that required a fast oil, I probably would.
 
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