Who, besides Glock, makes a high end 10mm SA Pistol?

Not trying to PO anyone but, IMO, the 357 Sig is a POS. It and a 40 have almost identical ballistics when firing a 125 grain bullet, the standard load for the Sig. The 40, however, can be loaded with bullets from 125 to 185 grains. The 40 is also an easy cartridge to reload while the Sig is a bear with that tiny area of the necked down case that holds the bullet. A 40 cartridge with standard powder charges can be reloaded 20 or more times. You're lucky to get four reloads from a Sig case.

Our NM Highway patrol went to the 357 Sig from S&W 45s a few years back. I was talking to one of their guys at an accident scene at that time and he was telling me how the 357 Sig outperformed the 357 Mag. I laughed and told him his Sig velocity with that 125 grain bullet was between 1300 and 1400 fps while the 357 Mag was in excess of 1700 fps, no 'outperformance' there. BTW, our Highway Patrol is now in the process of reverting back to 45s where they should have stayed in the first place. Just my $00.02
 
Old CW4 said:
Not trying to PO anyone but, IMO, the 357 Sig is a POS. It and a 40 have almost identical ballistics when firing a 125 grain bullet, the standard load for the Sig. The 40, however, can be loaded with bullets from 125 to 185 grains. The 40 is also an easy cartridge to reload while the Sig is a bear with that tiny area of the necked down case that holds the bullet. A 40 cartridge with standard powder charges can be reloaded 20 or more times. You're lucky to get four reloads from a Sig case.

Our NM Highway patrol went to the 357 Sig from S&W 45s a few years back. I was talking to one of their guys at an accident scene at that time and he was telling me how the 357 Sig outperformed the 357 Mag. I laughed and told him his Sig velocity with that 125 grain bullet was between 1300 and 1400 fps while the 357 Mag was in excess of 1700 fps, no 'outperformance' there. BTW, our Highway Patrol is now in the process of reverting back to 45s where they should have stayed in the first place. Just my $00.02
Click to expand...

From a 4in service pistol using the standard .357 mag revolver with 125 grain bullets that officers once used the average speed is around 1450fps. The sig round was designed to be around this speed and IMO they did a good job. Your average sig round is real close and sometimes more than 1400fps and when put in a 5in barrel the speed jumps to near 2000fps with some rounds. Reports of the .357 sig used in LE have been very good and most cases have been 1 shot knock downs.

I looked long and hard into this round before deciding on it and with the almost 20,000 round of it I have put through my XD it has proven it self well. While shooting USPSA I would watch how the round steel plates went flying off their stand when 9mm, 9 major, .40, .45, and 38 super went to work. The only rounds that could compete with the violent way that the .357sig knocked off those steel plates was the 9 major and the 38 super. I also observed while target shooting with 140 grain S&B ammo that it will go right through a 5in dia. pine tree, I don't know about you but I thought that was impressive.

Not 185 grains but you can get up to 157grains in the sig. Its common place to doubt something new but its hard to deny it real world performance.

Your local LE is probably switching back because of cost of ammo and difference in recoil. Some just can't handle the sharp recoil of the sig.
 
knifenut, Agree. Shoot what you're happy with. I also have some favorites. One I shoot often is a 1920s Astra Spanish military in 9mm Largo (9 x 23), roughly equivalent to a 38 super. Another pair of 'cannons' I always take to the range with me are two BFR 45-70s with ten inch barrels. My pet load for them is a 405 grain half jacket in front of 51 grains of IMR 4320. They chrono about 1550 and the steel guys won't let me use them on their targets because of the damage. A hot 44 mag is a pussycat in comparison and about 20 rounds is all I can handle without a break to ease the elbows and also let them cool. Math-energy wise they're the equal of any of the new 'super rounds' such as the 460, 500, etc., and about 3.7 times a 44 mag. Another personal favorite is a Springfield V16 in 45 super. I hot that one up (safely) to approach 41 mag energies and it is a barn burner. Still, my favorite carry gun on duty with my local sheriff's dept is a SW 41 mag, six inch barrel, stainless, and pushing 220 grain bullets at almost 1700. It will punch through both doors of a full size sedan or pickup with the windows down and keep right on going. I haven't had to do that to an in use vehicle but did put one through the severly sloped windshield of a nut trying to bust through a roadblock. The round went through the windshield without scating and parted the drivers hair, on out the upper rear windown frame, and off into the desert. The guy did stop after that and I wished I'd shot about four inches lower to save jail food. Ah well...

Anyway, the best to you especially since you guys with this thread have whetted my appetite for a 10mm. So Monday morning I'll take a deep breath and order a SW 10/40 revolver with six inch barrel plus a batch of full moon clips. I have a fair amount of 10mm brass I've picked up on ranges and gobs of 40 brass so I'll be able to keep the new one well fed also. Be safe, and sorry if I got too blunt about the Sig.
 
knifenut,

I agree with much of your post, however, the velocity increase you cite for a one inch longer barrel length, e.g., 'From a 4in service pistol using the standard .357 mag revolver with 125 grain bullets that officers once used the average speed is around 1450fps. The sig round was designed to be around this speed and IMO they did a good job. Your average sig round is real close and sometimes more than 1400fps and when put in a 5in barrel the speed jumps to near 2000fps with some rounds.' That much of a velocity increase from a one inch longer barrel nagged at me later and I've been thinking back over a lifetime of shooting and reloading. Normally, the velocity increase per inch of barrel lengthening is about 30 fps. Therefore I have to ask how does the Sig gain 600 fps? It this is for real, it would mean the powder used in 'some Sig rounds' would have to be really hot, perhaps even dangerous pressure wise, or the bullets are super light, down to 100 grains or less.

Many hand loaders, and I'm one of them, adjust or tailor their ammo to a particular firearm. For example most commercial handgun ammo is manufactured for a safe pressure and uniform velocity based on a given barrel length for that type of gun, usually a four or six inch barrel for revolvers. A big bore handgun such as a 44 mag with a short (two to three inch) barrel wastes much of the powder charge. You can confirm that by firing such a gun at night and seeing how much countryside you 'light up' with the muzzle flash. A hand loader can tailor rounds for such a gun by going to a faster burning powder for a short barrel and slower powder for a longer barrel. Powder burn rate is even more critical in rifles where barrels can vary from 16 to 26 or more inches for various calibers. In that case, if all the powder is burned in the first 18 or 20 inches the bullet then encounters friction and reduced velocity in the remaining barrel length after the gas pressures cease to increase. The cure would be a slower powder which will ideally complete its burn just as the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Anyway, just wanted to pose that question and, I guess, reopen the age old discussion as to which is best---a light bullet travelling fast or a big bullet travelling slower. When all is said and done, I would rather have a 10MM, 45, or some other larger handgun rather than a Sig 357.
 
a 357 mag round outta a 4 bbl is gonna be around 1400 or so and imho the 357sig compares very favorably w/the mag round, i dont think one will do anything the other wont, that said i prefer the .40 to either one.

i have always wondered why more 147gr 357sig loads arent around, imho it would be better than the 125gr.

if for some reason i wanted a 10mm i would go with either the glock or one of the old 1911 colt deltas myself.
 
moonwilson said:
What's wrong with the good ol' .45? There's not much on this green Earth that a .45 caliber pill won't make dead. Sig P220 or Glock 21 FTW!
Click to expand...

For use on bigger heavier game, the 10mm will offer much deeper penetration. It is a faster round, with less cross section. It is definitely a better round for big hairy things like bear, moose, etc (not that I would pic that round if I was actually out there hunting these).

The .45 is a great round for most everything else, especially lighter skinned less dense things (oh, I don't know people for example). Specifically because of it's lower sectional density. It won't over penetrate like a 10mm.

Glock will be a good bet. Might be hard to find another gun new, that will be as reliable, unless you are talking a much pricier 1911 style.
 
As others have said, I think Kimber is still making them.

If you look around you can occasionally find a used S&W 10XX for sale. Most people bought them and didn't fire them much, or they beat them to crap. It's easy to tell which category a used gun is in.

Kentucky State Police adopted the 1076 (DA, decocker) at about the same time the FBI adopted the 10mm, but KSP didn't adopt the 950 fps wuss load the FBI did. The KSP guns show up used here from time to time. Amazingly, the steady diet of full-power loads didn't seem to loosen them up much.
 
Call it what u want but when I reloaded for competition I had 115 grain rounds pushing 1500fps on my ported 4in XD. So basically my pistol only has a 3in barrel because of the porting. Blast causing higher readings? your kidding right? to take a reading a object must pass both triangles, the blast is moving at a much slower rate than the bullet so that rules out your theory.
 
elkins45 said:
1800 fps--not possible from a pistol length barrel, probably not even a carbine. They must have been shooting so close to the screens that they were clocking the muzzle blast.

Adding an inch of barrel doesn't add 400 fps to any round, even an overbore magnum rifle. Sorry, I'm just not buying it.
Click to expand...

.30 carbine out of a 7 1/2 inch Ruger blackhawk, with handloads will push 2000 fps.

1500 is the factory ammo speed in that gun, with a cylinder gap.

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastruger30bh.htm (there is a chart for the quick loads he did). Those weren't maximum loads.

I have a a 6 1/2 inch AMT, and I believe I remember factory ammo out of that one was as fast as 1700 for the lighter load. (I could just be remembering wrong).

the factory loads for the .357 Sig are 1300-1500 depending on the bullet weight and brand from a Glock. You might be able to get it up a few hundred fps faster with hot handloads, but I don't think I would want to be the first one to try them in my gun! ;).
 
a bud had a ruger blackhawk .30 carbine and if nothing else it was LOUD lol, my ears ring thinking about it.

the only reason i would go with 10mm is for hunting, barring that i prefer a .45ACP,

as far as 357 mag & SIG they wont do much a 9MM wont do imho, as far as self defense anyway, and my glock 33 357SIG is louder than my buds .30 carbine blackhawk, i hope if i ever need my glock 33 fast the bad guy will pause a moment and let me put my ear protection in lol, my 32C is still loud but not as bad as the 33, i gues the comp doesnt help any,
 
knifenut1013 said:
Call it what u want but when I reloaded for competition I had 115 grain rounds pushing 1500fps on my ported 4in XD. So basically my pistol only has a 3in barrel because of the porting. Blast causing higher readings? your kidding right? to take a reading a object must pass both triangles, the blast is moving at a much slower rate than the bullet so that rules out your theory.
Click to expand...

Apples and oranges, my friend. I absolutely believe you can get 1700 fps with a 115gr bullet and HANDLOADS. I don't doubt you at all. But that's not what we are discussing here, at least not what I thought we were.

The guy in the video was shooting 125gr generic Winchester white box FACTORY LOADS we were led to believe. Those run about 1300fps out of my 4 inch SIG. Adding an inch of barrel won't remotely get close to adding 500fps to those loads. I have a 5 inch drop in 357 barrel for my G20 and it doesn't even bring them up to 1500.

BTW, it's well known that muzzle blast can cause inflated chrono readings. Don't believe me? Just ask the chrono makers why they specify a minimum distance from the muzzle to the front screen. And the muzzle blast is moving much FASTER than the bullet initially, otherwise it wouldn't be pushing it. High speed photos verify this, and it explains why a nick in the crown of a rifle is so bad for accuracy. When the bullet first leaves the barel the gasses come blasting past the base because they are so much faster. They have to be faster for the gun to work.

Yes, they lose velocity much quicker than the bullet because they have so much less mass, but for at least a few feet from the muzzle they are really haulin'. Ever see a muzzle break blow someone's hat off? For a small volume of gas to have that much kinetic energy it has to be fast.
 
Last edited:
Bigfattyt said:
.30 carbine out of a 7 1/2 inch Ruger blackhawk, with handloads will push 2000 fps.

1500 is the factory ammo speed in that gun, with a cylinder gap.

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastruger30bh.htm (there is a chart for the quick loads he did). Those weren't maximum loads.

I have a a 6 1/2 inch AMT, and I believe I remember factory ammo out of that one was as fast as 1700 for the lighter load. (I could just be remembering wrong).

the factory loads for the .357 Sig are 1300-1500 depending on the bullet weight and brand from a Glock. You might be able to get it up a few hundred fps faster with hot handloads, but I don't think I would want to be the first one to try them in my gun! ;).
Click to expand...

But we aren't talking about handloads here. At least I wasn't. I can get all kinds of crazy velocity increases if I stuff the case full of Bullseye!

The issue is factory handgun loads gaining 500fps with just one additional inch of barrel length. I say it can't happen. Do a graph of barrel length vs velocity on that and see what it looks like---at 8 inches the speeds probably start to approach 3000fps! Does that seem reasonable to you?
 
elkins45 said:
Apples and oranges, my friend. I absolutely believe you can get 1700 fps with a 115gr bullet and HANDLOADS. I don't doubt you at all. But that's not what we are discussing here, at least not what I thought we were.

The guy in the video was shooting 125gr generic Winchester white box FACTORY LOADS we were led to believe. Those run about 1300fps out of my 4 inch SIG. Adding an inch of barrel won't remotely get close to adding 500fps to those loads. I have a 5 inch drop in 357 barrel for my G20 and it doesn't even bring them up to 1500.

BTW, it's well known that muzzle blast can cause inflated chrono readings. Don't believe me? Just ask the chrono makers why they specify a minimum distance from the muzzle to the front screen. And the muzzle blast is moving much FASTER than the bullet initially, otherwise it wouldn't be pushing it. High speed photos verify this, and it explains why a nick in the crown of a rifle is so bad for accuracy. When the bullet first leaves the barel the gasses come blasting past the base because they are so much faster. They have to be faster for the gun to work.

Yes, they lose velocity much quicker than the bullet because they have so much less mass, but for at least a few feet from the muzzle they are really haulin'. Ever see a muzzle break blow someone's hat off? For a small volume of gas to have that much kinetic energy it has to be fast.
Click to expand...





Actually, being the original poster, I was looking for ideas on a 10mm. Not looking for a hijacking of the thread to argue about muzzle velocity and energy of .357sig., .357 mag., .40s&w etc. etc.

knifenut 1013 seems to have enough experience shooting the .357sig. to know the ins and outs. But again, this is not the topic.

Thanks
 
I have the Glock and the Kimber. Both great pistols. However, they are very different. Kimber more classic 1911 and I think a bit more snappy in recoil.

The Glock doesn't fit many people's hand well since it's their larger frame.
It is nice to be able to drop in the factory extended barrel to get a bit more velocity out of it for pretty cheap. Plus, it holds more ammo if that matters in this case. I cleanly took a 300lb wild bore with mine, no issues.

I like them both a lot and don't think you can go wrong with either. The Glock is a lot cheaper though and a good place to start if you aren't sure you'll stick with the 10mm.

I haven't owned a Witness but would not rule one out if you see a bargain on them and you like what it offers.

Up to you really, a steel 1911 or polymer hi-cap.
 
mnyshrpknvs said:
Actually, being the original poster, I was looking for ideas on a 10mm. Not looking for a hijacking of the thread to argue about muzzle velocity and energy of .357sig., .357 mag., .40s&w etc. etc.

knifenut 1013 seems to have enough experience shooting the .357sig. to know the ins and outs. But again, this is not the topic.

Thanks
Click to expand...


Sorry for any hijacking :o but you did say you loved the .357mag and just wanted more rounds. To me if you like the mag's performance then the sig would be the logical choice for higher capacity.

I still don't think the muzzle blast is a factor in that vid, I did a little research on the subject and reviewed the video again. If you look at the position of the camera the gun would be in view if it was close enough for muzzle blast to be a factor.

As for the 10mm, if you really want that monster then I would suggest anything but a glock. Not because glock is a bad gun but because that round is real nasty and has been proven to put a hurtin on the plastic fantastic.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Sorry for any hijacking :o but you did say you loved the .357mag and just wanted more rounds. To me if you like the mag's performance then the sig would be the logical choice for higher capacity.

I still don't think the muzzle blast is a factor in that vid, I did a little research on the subject and reviewed the video again. If you look at the position of the camera the gun would be in view if it was close enough for muzzle blast to be a factor.

As for the 10mm, if you really want that monster then I would suggest anything but a glock. Not because glock is a bad gun but because that round is real nasty and has been proven to put a hurtin on the plastic fantastic.
Click to expand...

My apologies for the hijacking as well.

To me the big minus for the Glock, at least in factory stock configuration, is how badly it deforms brass with loads that approach full power. Because of the unsupported feed ramp it's not unusual for a big bulge to appear on one side of the brass near the case when firing full-power loads. Those cases scare me WAY too much to ever use for full powered loads again. You can resize the bulge away, but there's no way that much deformation doesn't weaken the case wall.

The Glock needs a fully supported barrel if you want to shoot full power loads and reload the brass.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top