Bill DeShivs
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Rat Finkenstein said:
All I am saying is that some of this is overkill.
Bill
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Who here does NOT like the Sharpmaker?
- Thread starter psycho78
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All I am saying is that some of this is overkill.
Bill
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Bill DeShivs said:
I agree, but there is money to be made selling sharpening equipment, and people are eager to try out "easier" methods and products.
In my opinion, it is better for someone to learn to sharpen correctly, even with training wheels, than to just go and wreck their knives on high speed grinders, or by rubbing them on sidewalks.
The Sharpmaker is hardly overkill: only two angles and two grits. It is not very expensive either. I have spend more than twice the price of the Sharpmaker on a single benchstone. And the only shortcut it takes, is that it makes it easier for you to maintain the same angle.
And, yes, with a Sharpmaker it is possible to get an edge shaving sharp and that is shaving by the most demanding standards. Just take a look at the "cutting newsprint" thread. I have never seen a blade that can push cut toilet paper and I believe neither has Cliff, despite the little competition he is running. Slicing toilet paper with an edge sharpened by the Sharpmaker is easy to achieve.
The microbevel has nothing to do with burr, as a matter of fact, it is the most effective way to combat a stubborn burr. AFAIK Micro- or Multi-beveling was popularized by Juranich, you might want to look him up.
I don't think that the Sharpmaker was ever supposed to replace benchstones. Sal himself said he enjoys from time to time sharping on a stone. Freehanding and the Sharpmaker are not mutually exclusive. I enjoy using my stones, but that doesn't mean, I am not using my Sharpmaker. For a quick shaving sharp blade it is hard to beat the Sharpmaker.
Knowing how to sharpen is hardly a lost art "around here", if this refers to this particular subforum. I would say that most people that frequent this subforum regularly, know how to sharpen one way or another.
As Yuzuha and others pointed already out, due to its limitations, the Sharpmaker is hardly applicable everywhere, but to stand on a pedistal looking down on someone using the Sharpmaker, without ever having tried one is just silly. To do so, that person would have to prove to me that he is actually able to beat the edge achievable by the Sharpmaker on a suitable blade with a good geometry! And THAT is a tall order (especially if you combine the Sharpmaker with a simple strop). Actually, am pretty sure that most people that toot their freehanding skills would fail to do so. If Jeff Clark isn't above using the Sharpmaker, why should I (or you)?
And, yes, with a Sharpmaker it is possible to get an edge shaving sharp and that is shaving by the most demanding standards. Just take a look at the "cutting newsprint" thread. I have never seen a blade that can push cut toilet paper and I believe neither has Cliff, despite the little competition he is running. Slicing toilet paper with an edge sharpened by the Sharpmaker is easy to achieve.
The microbevel has nothing to do with burr, as a matter of fact, it is the most effective way to combat a stubborn burr. AFAIK Micro- or Multi-beveling was popularized by Juranich, you might want to look him up.
I don't think that the Sharpmaker was ever supposed to replace benchstones. Sal himself said he enjoys from time to time sharping on a stone. Freehanding and the Sharpmaker are not mutually exclusive. I enjoy using my stones, but that doesn't mean, I am not using my Sharpmaker. For a quick shaving sharp blade it is hard to beat the Sharpmaker.
Knowing how to sharpen is hardly a lost art "around here", if this refers to this particular subforum. I would say that most people that frequent this subforum regularly, know how to sharpen one way or another.
As Yuzuha and others pointed already out, due to its limitations, the Sharpmaker is hardly applicable everywhere, but to stand on a pedistal looking down on someone using the Sharpmaker, without ever having tried one is just silly. To do so, that person would have to prove to me that he is actually able to beat the edge achievable by the Sharpmaker on a suitable blade with a good geometry! And THAT is a tall order (especially if you combine the Sharpmaker with a simple strop). Actually, am pretty sure that most people that toot their freehanding skills would fail to do so. If Jeff Clark isn't above using the Sharpmaker, why should I (or you)?
Cliff Stamp
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I think the whole thing is absurd. I have spent significant time experimenting sharpening on common rocks, not sandstones. Should I therefore start lamenting about overkill when someone mentions a benchstone or wanting an extreme level of sharpness and note you can make any blade slice paper at 20 degrees with a normal rock.
-Cliff
I don't see why this has to be an either/or situation. I use Razor Edge hones for freehand sharpening my utility/wilderness knives because I think freehand sharpening is a valuable skill to know, and when in the wilderness I need to keep weight and bulk to a minimum.
But for sharpening my kitchen knives at home the Sharpmaker is the best I've found, everything considered.
Cliff--
Cool about the rock sharpening! That's really getting down to the basics! It's probably not appropriate on this thread but if you'd care to share more on another thread or have links I'd appreciate seeing them.
But for sharpening my kitchen knives at home the Sharpmaker is the best I've found, everything considered.
Cliff--
Cool about the rock sharpening! That's really getting down to the basics! It's probably not appropriate on this thread but if you'd care to share more on another thread or have links I'd appreciate seeing them.
Cliff Stamp
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There is no real difference in using a rock and an actual benchstone in term of basic technique. The drawbacks of random stones are that the surface isn't very flat and the abrasion is really weak and they glaze quickly, unless of course you live in a area which has natural high quality stones.
If you are just shaping a soft machete blade then you can use a really rough fractured surface like a file and this will leave a coarse edge which slices well but goes blunt fast while chopping. If you poke around you should be able to find a rock with a small smooth patch, you can grind them together to make one if you can't.
Most local rocks behave like the hard arkansas stones in that they do not wear well and glaze quickly and cut slowly. Even then though, I have taken knives and dug holes with them to the point they would not cut anything and then restored them to the point they would shave on a slice with some skin irritation.
It is way faster and easier to achieve a high sharpness with even the cheapest benchstone you can find in a hardware store though.
-Cliff
If you are just shaping a soft machete blade then you can use a really rough fractured surface like a file and this will leave a coarse edge which slices well but goes blunt fast while chopping. If you poke around you should be able to find a rock with a small smooth patch, you can grind them together to make one if you can't.
Most local rocks behave like the hard arkansas stones in that they do not wear well and glaze quickly and cut slowly. Even then though, I have taken knives and dug holes with them to the point they would not cut anything and then restored them to the point they would shave on a slice with some skin irritation.
It is way faster and easier to achieve a high sharpness with even the cheapest benchstone you can find in a hardware store though.
-Cliff
To sharpen my home-made knife I have always used fairly flat stones about three inches across and fairly flat. Either I strop it over the stone or sometimes I rub the stone over the edge iln circular motions. I may then use a book and strop on the paper of it and finish with stropping it on glass.
For me it is a hit and miss thing. My knife is always sharp and will shave hairs on my arm but not my face.
For me it is a hit and miss thing. My knife is always sharp and will shave hairs on my arm but not my face.
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Let's not forget that about 17,000-20,000 years ago, the Solutrean culture of Europe produced the finest stone tools and points ever made. They didn't own sharpmakers. They didn't need them. And this definitely seems to be kind of a "lost skill" around here.
Alright, everybody put on your skins and go find some pieces of flint and obsidian.....
Alright, everybody put on your skins and go find some pieces of flint and obsidian.....
To me, using the sharpmaker seems like you're going at it rather blindly. Youre holding the knife straight, looking at the spine, and drawing it across a rod that is slanted 30 degrees or whatever. That would frustrate me, not being able to look at the edge, and how it lays against the stone at the angle suited for the knife.
Here's the way I sharpen a knife. I'm ambidextruous, so to switch sides I just switch hands. This way i can see the edge and whats happening. I dont think I could do that with the sharpmaker.
Here's the way I sharpen a knife. I'm ambidextruous, so to switch sides I just switch hands. This way i can see the edge and whats happening. I dont think I could do that with the sharpmaker.
Cliff Stamp
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You can use the Sharpmaker in that manner if you desire as it converts to a medium or fine large ceramic benchstone, or ultra-fine or coarse diamond with the additional rods.
-Cliff
-Cliff
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That is how I freehand with the sharpmaker, I watch the edge like you mention, while holding one of the stones in my hand.
Sure, you can do that, even if you use the Sharpmaker not as a benchstone. It is actually much easier to see how the edge contacts the abrasive.
No, the limitations of the Sharpmaker as I see them are:
1) The ceramic rods aren't cutting all that fast, compared to abrasive media of the same grit their are not overly fast, but compared to coarser grits they are outright slow (as you would expect). So this is just not the right tool to reprofile or thin out an edge. You can buy the diamond rods but another problem is, that you can not really lean into the abrasive for fast stock removal, for that you have to use the Sharpmaker as a benchstone (which is possible but any regular benchstone works better for this).
2) Limited angles available. For touching up or microbevels, I think the provided angles are sufficient and you can use Jeff's teeter-totter method as well, but again, to set a geometry, this is not the right tool.
3) The hard abrasive (ceramic) does not work well on all steels in my experience. In particular the fine, highly hardened japanese knives you can seriously damage, banging them against the Sharpmaker rods. However, I have not encountered problems with the typical pocket knife type pretty much regardless what steel. Some steels take longer than others but it works in general.
Aside from the really fragile blades, I have not encountered a knife that I couldn't sharpen with a combination of coarse (x-coarse, or xx-coarse, take your pick) DMT, Sharpmaker and strop. And even together that combination is still cheaper than a single high quality natural Arkansas or a single one of the more expensive waterstones. Yes, I think it is possible to beat the edge you get on the Sharpmaker with a combination of good stones and a lot of care....but it sure isn't easy, and usually, the better I get freehanding, the better I get on the Sharpmaker, so for me it is a constant competition trying to beat my own Sharpmaker skills. It is fun and as many, freehanding is a skill that I take pride in. But my own obsessions aside, if I am completely honest with myself, except for some "exotic" blades like japanese kitchen knives and straight razors, I really wouldn't *need* anymore than the DMT, Sharpmaker and strop (which is not coincidentally also the setup that I travel with, excluding the strop. It is very packable.)
No, the limitations of the Sharpmaker as I see them are:
1) The ceramic rods aren't cutting all that fast, compared to abrasive media of the same grit their are not overly fast, but compared to coarser grits they are outright slow (as you would expect). So this is just not the right tool to reprofile or thin out an edge. You can buy the diamond rods but another problem is, that you can not really lean into the abrasive for fast stock removal, for that you have to use the Sharpmaker as a benchstone (which is possible but any regular benchstone works better for this).
2) Limited angles available. For touching up or microbevels, I think the provided angles are sufficient and you can use Jeff's teeter-totter method as well, but again, to set a geometry, this is not the right tool.
3) The hard abrasive (ceramic) does not work well on all steels in my experience. In particular the fine, highly hardened japanese knives you can seriously damage, banging them against the Sharpmaker rods. However, I have not encountered problems with the typical pocket knife type pretty much regardless what steel. Some steels take longer than others but it works in general.
Aside from the really fragile blades, I have not encountered a knife that I couldn't sharpen with a combination of coarse (x-coarse, or xx-coarse, take your pick) DMT, Sharpmaker and strop. And even together that combination is still cheaper than a single high quality natural Arkansas or a single one of the more expensive waterstones. Yes, I think it is possible to beat the edge you get on the Sharpmaker with a combination of good stones and a lot of care....but it sure isn't easy, and usually, the better I get freehanding, the better I get on the Sharpmaker, so for me it is a constant competition trying to beat my own Sharpmaker skills. It is fun and as many, freehanding is a skill that I take pride in. But my own obsessions aside, if I am completely honest with myself, except for some "exotic" blades like japanese kitchen knives and straight razors, I really wouldn't *need* anymore than the DMT, Sharpmaker and strop (which is not coincidentally also the setup that I travel with, excluding the strop. It is very packable.)