Who was it that said O1 would outcut any Damascus?

[flatgrinder]

!&%$#@ #*)()@&! @**&%! If we are now going to attribute the quote to one person, allow me to make it prefectly clear that I had no idea who said it at the time of my previous post. I myself have no idea who may have said it.

Now, allow me to explain my reaction here. It is a fun hobby for some lurkers on the internet to set up human cock fights between well known makers. Ad hominem attack has never been my style, it is a false argument and thus I have no use for it, a review of any posts I have made will show this, yet a combination of malicious cronyism and political correctness in this business can make almost any position one takes a personal attack. One can say that they prefer S7 in larger blades over 5160 and invariably somebody in the crowd will think “hmmm my friend John Doe uses 5160, what does this guy have against John?” Now even though around a bazillion people use 5160, word will get out that you personally have it out for John Doe.

For a while, around twice a year I would get a message or phone call from one very well known smith, because some scumbag was playing games and pitting us against each other. The method was often along the lines of a factually weak statement unconnected to anyh one person being made in a forum thread, I would post and give contrary facts, then several posts later the other smiths name would be mentioned and in some way connected to the original position. Then the other smith would be informed that Kevin Cashen was saying that they were full of !@# and that folks shouldn’t buy their book, knives, widgets or whatever, when that smiths name wasn’t even mentioned until a week after I had left the thread.

As this continued I started to be certain that I said very complimentary things about that smith and his stuff whenever his name was mentioned. Now this is no joke, but I then got a phone call from him after he had been told that I was claiming he had underworld connections and was saying nice things out of fear for my life! I am not making this up, this really happened. Of course the other smith was smarter than this and we now find it all humorous and wait to see the next wacky thing the knit wits can throw our way. But if I ever find out who the weasel was that was doing it, my Christianity will be sorely tested.

Now that smith does not post here, nor I believe does the game playing scumbag, but it has happened with a few other smiths to a lesser degree. Why me? I believe it is a way that the field has of policing unpopular thought. I make no secret of the fact that I have an agenda to hold intense factual light up to all the hype, myth and hooey this business has been shackled with for so long. I like to present facts, but when one threatens the B.S. that too many hold dear with facts that they cannot deal with one way to fight back is to make it personal and use peer pressure. If you can turn enough of the heretic’s peers against him, the personal pressure may be enough to silence him; the problem is the facts still remain.

Flaming is a cowardly way out of an internet conversation when you realize your position is too weak to stand. When your position is strong and your facts are good, you can afford to be a gentleman and calmly rely on reason. One has no use for ad hominem tactics if they have facts.

Now before I end up getting a call from yet another smith, I have never met Mr. Bagwell, his knives are very well known and appear to be very collectible and thus worthy investments. I have no idea if he said anything like the above statement, I don’t care because it is irrelevant. My comments, as always were directed at the premise not at a person.

I took time out for this long winded post to nip yet another bit of silliness in the bud. I hate this sort of crap, but I will not be silenced by these techniques. It is safe to say that political correctness has achieved total victory when it even reaches bladesmiths.

Damn dude, take it easy. If you hadn't noticed, I quoted your statements after I mentioned Mr. Bagwell -his name was mentioned by jdm61, who made this post:

In the Loveless book, Bill Moran said that 9260 makes a blade that is even tougher than his O1/1010 damascus. Bill Bagwell was the "prophet" of the "Damascus cutting effect" as i recall. Remember that the stuff Moran was making back then was fairly low carbon...like O1 diluted to the carbon content of 1050 and high layer count, so the carbon would have totally migrated I would guess. Like the stuff that Don Hanson made with wrought iron and W2.

There was no intention to say that you (Mr. Cashen) made that statement.

I was interested by your post on damascus steel, and quoted that to ask which combinations would be competitive with O1 -if O1 were not allowed to be one of the constituents of the damascus.

Maybe I should have made separate posts. I apologize for the confusion.

Peace.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Damn dude, take it easy. If you hadn't noticed, I quoted your statements after I mentioned Mr. Bagwell -his name was mentioned by jdm61, ...

...I was interested by your post on damascus steel, and quoted that to ask which combinations would be competitive with O1 -if O1 were not allowed to be one of the constituents of the damascus.

Maybe I should have made separate posts. I apologize for the confusion.

Peace.

No need for apologies flatgrinder, none of my commentary was directed to you, but instead to any numbers of pinheads lurking that may read this thread and pull the same tired old games of equating positions on inanimate materials with personal attacks. If I didn’t communicate that earlier, allow me to do it now. I saw all too familiar circumstances developing in this thread and decided to get ahead of it this time. You are here and communicating, actually participating in the threads appears to be too open and honest for the people who play these games.

I am just at a point right now where I have grown impatient with ego games. I cannot be the only one who has seen the method of silencing opposing viewpoints by portraying any dissenting opinion as personal attack. This is practically the definition of political correctness.

And since you are here and engaging in a good conversation, I would add to what the others have said on your question. Much of the long held concepts about Damascus still linger from the days when custom knifemakers worked in the absence of knowledge of the diffusion process. It was believed that a blade with full hard layers toughened by soft layers could be achieved by carbon content alone. So much mild steel has been added to mixes over the years thinking that it would have no effect on the high carbon layers, when the unfortunate truth was that most often the mild steel only depleted those layers of the carbon necessary to reach full hardness. Any mixes where low carbon steel is combined with O1 is going to result in a overall lower carbon content, in most general applications this will reduce edge holding. Thus if your experience is limited to those mixes that must incorporate low carbon steel in order to called “damascus”, then O1 will most likely hold a better edge than “damascus”. Once the nature of diffusion was understood and people opened their horizons to any steels they wished to combine, the sky became the limit, and many blades had the potential to becoming more than a match for O1 alone.

On another note, I have some date from my earlier studies that involved O1/1018 mixes, but very little since I could never get the stuff to harden or perform on any level that would allow it to be compared to any other mix tested. One needs similar HRC values in order to test impact or edge holding and I could never get that mix to get above 55HRC for further testing. On the other hand Ketos O1 alone consistently reaches 64.5 HRC with little effort, and then requires extensive tempering to get down to a range I would want for testing.

 

[octihunter]

Tis my most favorite mix O-1 and 15n20.
Best contrast in my book!!!!
KCC

 

[mlovett]

Thanks Big! San Mia. I was having a total Brain Fart! Kevin. You are so right. I got blasted this way bit time. Now I'm afraid to EVER voice an opinion here. It can be like walking in a mine field. Mike

 

[GibsonFan]

You guys think this can be bad, strike up a single-coil vs. humbucker conversation in a music store. :eyeroll:

I become a bigger fan of this forum on a daily basis; precisely because I see you gentlemen comporting yourselves like, well, gentlemen.

 

[jdm61]

You guys think this can be bad, strike up a single-coil vs. humbucker conversation in a music store. :eyeroll:

I become a bigger fan of this forum on a daily basis; precisely because I see you gentlemen comporting yourselves like, well, gentlemen.

Nah......this is much worse. Most guys would want to own at least one of each tyoe of guitar

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I thought this would a good time to dig through my old papers and find some of the data from those tests from a few years back.

Using a recipe that was very popular at one time in this business I welded up the O1/1018 mix I mentioned earlier that I included in a series of tests comparing some mixes. Oil hardening was not possible for this mix if I wished to compare it with other steels, and water alone was a bit weak so I had to resort to brine to get and as-quenched average of 55.4 HRC (actual readings- 56, 55.5, 55, 55.9, 55.2, 55) . Another bar with slightly more O1 added reached 57.4 as-quenched. To compare the readings on a bar consisting of 1084 and 15n20 averaged out to 65.16 HRC as-quenched in #50 oil. A control bar of O-1 alone reached HRC 64.6 as quenched in AAA oil.

I measured distortion factors and partially due to the extremity of the quench the O1/1018 has the highest average distortion from true, almost doubling any other samples.

Tempering had such profound effects that I had to drop the O1/1018 mix from any attempts at accurate comparison (note- without a hardness tester most folks would not have been so kind as to not compare apples and oranges and a lot of conflicting data and misinformation would have resulted). As soon as the tempering approached 400F the mix had dropped below 53 HRC. I typically take my O1/L6 to around 440F to get in the neighborhood of 59HRC.

Samples where sharpened using a grinding jig and finished on Spyderco fine ceramic stone, until capable of slicing cigarette paper, and then the edges were micrographed. After mild cutting the O1/1018 mix would no longer cut cigarette paper and microscopic examination showed a smoothing of the abrasion lines from sharpening. The material was soft enough to smooth over from cutting. Although it is very interesting to note that all pieces concerned would still easily shave hair. What tests do many smiths often use?

Here are some images:

Then after controlled cutting on hard cardboard the O1/1018 mix would no longer shave at all, for comparison the 1084/15n20 mix still shaved after the hard cardboard.

Finally impact studies were even more difficult with the mix, since the stuff wanted to simply fold up and go through the machine, heavy delamination was observed, unlike other mixes that broke in a much more homogeneous fashion.

I don’t like to work off assumptions or opinions alone, that has a tendency to catch up with one in ugly ways anytime people don’t just take you word for it and start asking troublesome questions. Much in this business is based upon the say so of a few smiths we assume know the facts, but we really need to find what data supports the findings as well.

After doing my own research in the area, I can very well see how somebody could say that O1 alone would out-cut damscus defined as this type of mix.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Hey Kevin, thanks for posting that, very good information!

 

[oljoe]

Kevin,
First of all thanks for posting this information.
This may be considered a hijack of this thread but I have a couple of questions about layered steel.
How many layers are considered optimum for cutting ability and what temperature range is the best to forge weld?
What was the layer count of the bars that were used in the study? Was the temperature while forging monitored?
The reason that I ask is that many of us use color to know when the bar is ready to weld. Would it be of great benefit to get a pyrometer to monitor the forge temperature while welding?

Joe

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Kevin,
...How many layers are considered optimum for cutting ability and what temperature range is the best to forge weld?

The layers are probably dependent upon the materials used. I have used both 80 layer O1/L6 and 0ver 300 layer L6 in competition cutting and notices little difference, but I am also mixing two very similar steels for heat treating. The temperature thing is kind of out there still there are some who have some interesting points for going hot on the welds and others who have reasons for going cooler,

What was the layer count of the bars that were used in the study? Was the temperature while forging monitored?

The layer count was 320 on all steels tested (with the exception of some cable I threw into the study just for fun). All steel (with the exception of one bar not mentioned here) was welded in the same forge on the same day with the temperature range of 2100F to 2300F.

The reason that I ask is that many of us use color to know when the bar is ready to weld. Would it be of great benefit to get a pyrometer to monitor the forge temperature while welding?
Joe

Only when being picky about testing purposes like this, average welding is touch and go as it is, some days things will stick well at lower temps, other days one needs to make it very hot to get any thing done. Since welding heat is well beyond any benificial heat treatments, just get it stuck together ASAP and fix it all later in the forging, normalizing and annealing.

 

[oljoe]

Kevin,
Thanks for the response.
Would it be reasonable to say that if similar hardening steels are used then the pattern would be just as important as the amount of layers?

I know what you mean about welding being touch and go. I started welding a billet this afternoon and was trying to get the last fold welded after the sun went down. I finally had to turn up the gas and air to get it to stick.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Patterning can effect the cutting to a certain degree but there are other aspects it can play a role in, for instance orientation of welds can have an effect in impact strength. I can't go into too much but I have reason to believe that the process affects the wear properties beyond just layering.

Now let me stress that I am not avoiding detail because it is a "secret", I have no secrets, I think secrets are ridiculous and should be considered a red flag about many things. I have a few things I don't go into detail yet about my studies because they are not conclusive. Broadcasting wild assumptions that one doesn't have sufficient data to back up is not only irresponsible but it is a perfect way to set ones self up to look like a fool later. When I see anomolous data, my first step is to assume that it is an error until I can the same . I have observed more than a few characteristics that will have me doing much more testing in the future in order to fully understand what I am seeing.

Welding is an odd thing, some days I can judge temp by color, others by the behavior of the flux. Some days a combination has to be used because the mojo just isn't flowing. There are those rare days that within 1/2 hour you realize it may be better to polish fittings than struggling all day to weld.

 

[oljoe]

Thanks Kevin

Joe

 

[slippse2]

I've bee reading this forum for a quite a while now but I don't post too often. I would like to say though, that I have learned a ton of information from most of these guys. I especially admire Kevin Cashen and his dedication to facts and data and his willingness to share his hard won information with all of us newbies.
I do find it annoying that accusations and are tossed around almost as if some sick mind is having fun creating dissent. I have read Mr. Cashen's posts and I alway learn something from him. I just wish he didn't have to spend so much time defending himself from people who would rather cause trouble than learn about knifemaking. Listen the facts and ignore the B.S.
Please Kevin, keep up the good, make that great work.
Sam

 

[Allan Molstad]

I think its mostly an old myth about the great cutting ability of true Damascus.

Im sure such blades in history were nice and sharp, but sometimes the stories might have gotten ahead of what was the real truth.