Why 1/8 inch blade stock?

[shaving sharp]

Why are so many bushcraft knives made from 1/8 inch thick stock? Seems to me that 3/16 should be the minimum for a woods knife you could really depend on.

 

[Rossi Knives]

Dexter Russel Skinners were well under 1/8. Most of Marbles knives were about 1/8. People got by with those for a looong time. Mudd Sharrigan rigging knives are 1/8 and they get batoned through rope all day, every day with no failures in their 20 plus years of manufacture.

A well heat treated blade at 1/8 of an inch will be tough enough for anything and can have better edge geometry.

Everyone just thinks they need a thick, heavy knife. They sell.

 

[Rick Marchand]

It all depends on the environment you frequent and your technique during use. A 1/8 blade will stand up to buscraft and hard use, no doubt. That being said, as my "one" knife... 1/8" simply will not do what I need it to. This has always been a dilema for me. Thinner knives cut well (which is the main purpose of a knife, of course.) but I train in the Canadian Boreal Forests... 0 to -40F are temperatures I have come to expect and "respect". I have seen too many thin knives snap. We chip through ice, pry open dead logs, dig in frozen ground, batton out firewood.... hell I've even used my knife as a hammered in foot peg to reach fungus in a tree. Most folks will never be in that sort of situation and won't feel the need for a more robust knife.

 

[shaving sharp]

It all depends on the environment you frequent and your technique during use. A 1/8 blade will stand up to buscraft and hard use, no doubt. That being said, as my "one" knife... 1/8" simply will not do what I need it to. This has always been a dilema for me. Thinner knives cut well (which is the main purpose of a knife, of course.) but I train in the Canadian Boreal Forests... 0 to -40F are temperatures I have come to expect and "respect". I have seen too many thin knives snap. We chip through ice, pry open dead logs, dig in frozen ground, batton out firewood.... hell I've even used my knife as a hammered in foot peg to reach fungus in a tree. Most folks will never be in that sort of situation and won't feel the need for a more robust knife.

That's how I feel about it,if you are going into the woods why not take a tool that you know will handle anything you throw at it?

 

[Fiddleback]

Why are so many bushcraft knives made from 1/8 inch thick stock? Seems to me that 3/16 should be the minimum for a woods knife you could really depend on.

Common misconception. I test my knives by battonning them cross grain through a 2" hickory limb that fell a few years ago. My 3/32" thick Nessmuks handle this task no problem.

It all depends on the environment you frequent and your technique during use. A 1/8 blade will stand up to buscraft and hard use, no doubt. That being said, as my "one" knife... 1/8" simply will not do what I need it to. This has always been a dilema for me. Thinner knives cut well (which is the main purpose of a knife, of course.) but I train in the Canadian Boreal Forests... 0 to -40F are temperatures I have come to expect and "respect". I have seen too many thin knives snap. We chip through ice, pry open dead logs, dig in frozen ground, batton out firewood.... hell I've even used my knife as a hammered in foot peg to reach fungus in a tree. Most folks will never be in that sort of situation and won't feel the need for a more robust knife.

Rick, that is knife abuse. Period. A knife that will pry looses a lot of its functionality. Digging will ruin the edge on any knife, regardless of how thick. Then what? Why not bring proper tools into the forest you respect?

 

[Fiddleback]

George Washington Sears:

The "bowies" and "hunting knives" usually kept on sale, are thick, clumsy affairs, with a sort of ridge along the middle of the blade, murderous-looking, but of little use; rather fitted to adorn a dime novel or the belt of "Billy the Kid," than the outfit of the hunter. The one shown in the cut is thin in the blade and handy for skinning, cutting meat, or eating with.

 

[shaving sharp]

Fiddleback,

I own one of you hunter knives and love it. Don't get me wrong I do not have a problem with 1/8 thick knives I am just trying to see why they are so popular. Up until this year I thumbed my nose at bushcraft knives, all I had In my large collection were large bowies with 7-10 inch blades. Then I got one of yours and a couple from Landi and several others and it is now clear to me why these knives are so popular. I was wondering if it was more of a use issue or a manufacturing issue. Having said all that I still feel best with at least a 3/16 thick blade.

 

[ArtinNC]

I agree ( that is knife abuse. Period )

 

[Fiddleback]

The hunter is in 5/32 probably. I do do them in 1/8" stock as well. 1/8" stock works. Why go thicker is a better question IMO? When you snap a blade what are you doing with it? The times you want to use a knife for cutting (ie, properly) the thinner blade will work better. It'll only snap if the heat treat was done improperly. Grossly improperly. If you're walking into the Borreal forest with a knife as your only tool, your tool isn't the real issue. You may want to go home and sober up.

(No offense, of course Rick, my friend.)

 

[Rick Marchand]

I totally understand the point Andy and the other guys are trying to make. I take no offence to you disagreeing. The seriously close-minded "sober up" comment surprized me a bit, though. Like I said... most will never experience these kind of situations. That's why I will never run down a knifemaker for using thin stock.... it works... Andy makes great knives.

I bring proper gear for the woods... especially the boreal forest in cold months. An axe, shovel, bucksaw and gas stove are standard equiptment. Do I carry them on me all the time? No. They mostly stay at camp, unless I set out to get wood or dig up edibles. Is there a possibility that I will be separated from my camp? Yes. Do I consider digging in frozen ground knife abuse? You betcha!!! who wouldn't? But when it comes down to needing a piece of rock to strike a spark for a fire, or risk freezing to death... call me an abuser, brother. Digging sticks don't work in frozen ground.

The picture I posted is the "morning after" shot from a simulated "separated from camp" scenario. When I started the night, it was 1hr before Sunset and -26C. I had only my base layer and a wool shirt on. (A knife and firepouch are also glued to my side when in the bush.) This is typical dress for slipping out of the tipi to take a quick leak. Can a person get lost taking a pee? Yes, it happens quite often, according to SAR records. So don't count on always having your tools when you need them.

Different environments call for different approaches. In the Southern States (typically... excluding deserts and high mountains) there is no rush for shelter or fire... unless you are cold and wet, hypothermia is not an immediate threat. The wood is workable and building materials are abundant in most areas. Water is in liquid form and food (to the skilled woodsman) is usually accessible. In my training environment, water and food is locked into ice and snow, wood is frozen and Earth is frozen. (When frozen, dry wood and wetwood are almost indistinguishable from eachother, BTW... and fatwood is like metal... it sucks) You pretty much lose all motor skills in 1hr with improper, or compromised protection from the elements. You are not afforded the luxury of time and options in extreme environments. (hot or cold)

At times like these, all bets are off. Proper knife use gets dwarfed in comparison to keeping your ass on this plane of existence. Dulling your knife now, means you'll be alive to resharpen it later... not just a dead dude with a sharp well taken care of knife. So you can speak from personal experience, that's fine... but making unfounded, generalized blanket statements in an attempt to trivialize my own experience is uncalled for, IMO... even in jest. Only after you've stood beside me and lived what I've lived can you tell me I'm wrong. (That really is an invite, bro.... I'd love to have you two up here sometime.)

"A knife that will pry looses a lot of its functionality"

Mine seemed to do well enough in the camp knife challenge.

That is why I call it my DILEMA..... thin knives make great knives for their intended use... but from my experience... sometimes they are needed to go above and beyond the call of duty.... and those times are usually when things are "all bad". That is also why I am experimenting with different geometries to get the best of both worlds.

Only guys in hockey masks intentionally break knives for no good reason. It's good that we (as users AND knifemakers) question eachother's rational from time to time... it keeps you on your toes.

Rick

 

[Justin King]

Batoning is abuse, if you want to get technical. Anyone who says otherwise is re-defining the purpose of a knife to suit their own ends. That is what hatchets and saws are for. So the question is not who is abusing their knife, but to what extent, and just as importantly, why? Survival? Or because we were too lazy, or too cool, to carry a portable folding saw? Mostly because we don't always get to choose our circumstances, or plan for them accordingly.
A man should only judge what is abuse for his own knife. In the face of real and immediate need, this definition will change rapidly. When skin off your ass is the alternative, you will find yourself abusing your knife in all sorts of ways. If this sounds totally unfamiliar to you then arguably you don't need a good knife. Any old blade should do you just fine.

 

[Rick Marchand]

George Washington Sears:

Nessmuk was the equivilent of an Ultralight Camper of today. He had his opinions on woods gear, but they were just that... opinions... and he was well known for being an overly opinionated man. Not everybody agreed with him... he was controversial during his time and still is today. His writings are popular because he was an editor for "Forest and Stream" magazine and published books.

So if I quote Ron Hood on why thicker knives are better, will it validate my opinion, in your eyes?

I don't think so.

 

[Fiddleback]

The seriously close-minded "sober up" comment surprized me a bit, though.
Rick

It was just meant to rib. If it was anyone else, I wouldn't have said it. I apologize that it was so sharp a barb.

 

[Rick Marchand]

It was just meant to rib. If it was anyone else, I wouldn't have said it. I apologize that it was so sharp a barb.

Ah... gotcha........ har-har.... punk:grumpy:...... just for that, YOU buy first round in Atlanta, boss.:thumbup:



Rick

 

[NStricker]

Why are so many bushcraft knives made from 1/8 inch thick stock? Seems to me that 3/16 should be the minimum for a woods knife you could really depend on.

There are a lot of variables to consider besides stock thickness.

Many "bushcraft" knives designed around the Ray Mears stereotype have a short, flat grind with no secondary grind (the "scandi" grind). For this type of knife with this type of grind, 1/8" is probably fine for most applications.

But, change the edge geometry--identical knife in every respect--but with a full height flat grind with a secondary grind (edge), then that knife is going to behave differently, especially under some of the more abusive treatments.

Same knife, with a convex grind, might be as hardy or possibly more so, than the scandi grind.

Yes, a nice hefty 3/16" blade might be better for some tasks that involve prying, twisting, impacting actions. But it may not function as well for some of the finer cutting operations also expected from a "bushcraft" knife.

Personally, a better historical example of a knife user than Nessmuk/Sears is Horace Kephart. His personal user knife was of 1/8" stock, 4.5 inch spearpoint blade, 4.5 inch handle, full flat ground.

But, he also used a hatchet for chopping, not his knife.

 

[R.C.Reichert]

How far back in history do "bushcraft" knives go anyways, or are they a more modern thing? I like historical knives like the old Sheffield butcher knives and such...they were not very thick, but still very useful knives. Perhaps the frontiersmen of way back when had different ideas on what a knife should be used for... Perhaps that's why they also carried large chopping knives or axes with them.

 

[Fiddleback]

Ah... gotcha........ har-har.... punk:grumpy:...... just for that, YOU buy first round in Atlanta, boss.:thumbup:



Rick

That, we can certainly agree on. First round is on me. Then we can trudge out into the Cobb County wilderness area and debate knife functionality while still buzzed.

How far back in history do "bushcraft" knives go anyways, or are they a more modern thing? I like historical knives like the old Sheffield butcher knives and such...they were not very thick, but still very useful knives. Perhaps the frontiersmen of way back when had different ideas on what a knife should be used for... Perhaps that's why they also carried large chopping knives or axes with them.

Ahh. Historical knives were thin bladed. I'd imagine the term bushcraft is a modern one though.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Ahh. Historical knives were thin bladed. I'd imagine the term bushcraft is a modern one though.

Oh boy.... this is gonna take a lot of beer in Atlanta.... I say we drink till we are either in agreement or forget what we were talking about.:thumbup:


Mid 1700's to early 1800 (longhunters) were not thin bladed according to my references. Most handmade knives were quite heafty, infact. The storebought Green River type "production" knives were cut from thin stock... but I believe it was more of a cost issue than anything else. However, butcher knives were always thin and many woodsman brought theirs out to the wild with them. (though, I have to wonder if it was because they already had them at the homestead anyway)

I'm not claiming to be an authority on historical blades... the books I have show mostly thick knives with a few Green River types in the mix. Most of my references come from Mark Baker's writings and his resources. Perhaps he is biased to certain blades. (M. Baker was the consultant for "Last of The Mohicans" and "The Patriot".)

Rick

 

[Fiddleback]

I'm not an expert at anything either. Just going by what was in my Grandad's collection.

Your idea sounds expensive. Lets agree to disagree...

 

[flatgrinder]

Depends on the grind