Why are balisongs so expensive?

Balisong have been produced for over a century (maybe three if the French were really the first). Most are straight handled, so no ergonomic concerns. Impacts only happen at the tang/zen pins, so little worry of robustness (did have BM replace a tang pin on a 42S years ago). The pricey and disco'd models mostly have handles of a single material, lots that were cast, so not much difficulty in production & assembly. A lot of the patterns are retreads in dimensions of handle and pivot placement, lots of steel and blade profile changes. Not much new engineering for companies that have made them for decades.

My guess, some balisong are getting more expensive cause people are willing to pay more.
 
The arguments about legal issues and low volume production make sense.

The ones about how much extra stress and precision it takes don't hold much water for me. It's not a Swiss watch. There is also not a lot of mass swinging around. All you have to do is get 2 hinges right.
 
hardheart said:
My guess, some balisong are getting more expensive cause people are willing to pay more.
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bingo!

There's no way that they are more difficult to make. Just getting the ball detent right on a folder is more difficult than anything on a Bali. The Bali has no lock. It is not a corner cut... just no added corner. The lock on a folder requires tighter tolerances than on any Bali... except the axis... The axis allows for all kinds of travel on the lock face.

Most likely Balis just don't sell very well, all things considered, so the cost is beefed up to account for low(er) production... unfortunately the standards are the same as these companies other knives... which, IMO, is nothing special. There is no "low production" Benchmade, including "Gold class" that compares to other "low production" companies like CRK, Strider, ect... The Balisong is so simple, it's genuis. It achieves triangulation/locking completely frictionless which is outstanding. There really should be a push to make it understood that the knife is not illegal. CRK should make a bali... not for Mall Ninjas, but because of what it is... an almost ancient, but near perfect design.

I see the words "Gravity Knife" in a lot of law... The fuzz may "think" that a Bali is a "Gravity Knife" but they are mistaken. There is no way a locked-closed balisong can be opened by gravity.
 
toxicchill said:
The titanium milled BM 4XX series are expensive in the 2nd hand market because they are no longer in production.
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The titanium 4X series were cast, not milled (finished on a mill perhaps, but the main process was casting). If they were milled from a solid billet, they'd be even more expensive. It's my largely unfounded suspicion that their mold was wearing out, leading to the discontinuation of the line. Molds don't last forever, and new ones (especially for Ti) are very expensive. This would also explain why the QC/F&F declined in the later year or 2 of production.
 
read the lines/thoughts individually and then read my answer i didnt want to have to cut and paste each.

dogstar said:
The ones about how much extra stress and precision it takes don't hold much water for me. It's not a Swiss watch. There is also not a lot of mass swinging around. All you have to do is get 2 hinges right.
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and thats why there is an abundance of CCC's

hardheart said:
Balisong have been produced for over a century (maybe three if the French were really the first). Most are straight handled, so no ergonomic concerns. Impacts only happen at the tang/zen pins, so little worry of robustness (did have BM replace a tang pin on a 42S years ago). The pricey and disco'd models mostly have handles of a single material, lots that were cast, so not much difficulty in production & assembly. A lot of the patterns are retreads in dimensions of handle and pivot placement, lots of steel and blade profile changes. Not much new engineering for companies that have made them for decades.

My guess, some balisong are getting more expensive cause people are willing to pay more.
Click to expand...

Ergos do have a play when it comes to flipping, flat handles dont twirl well and completely rounded ones have no centering point (as in there is a severe lack in control during rollovers), you need a blend between the two.

Impact may only directly affect the zen/tang pins but there is still vibrations that are shot through the rest of the handle. one of many reasons why people dont just flip CCC's, handles break way to often at this crucial point. obviously Ti handles this effect very well, that why they (BM) still use Ti in their balis.

there are more parts to have cut and made vs normal folders, so while technically not expensive still adds up through shear numbers.

this is semi-true. BM/Bradley used the same profile for the 4x/kimura series respectively because, well it worked, nuff said. others however have basically had to start from scratch as most dont want to copy others but to innovate in their own way.

archieblue said:
bingo!

There's no way that they are more difficult to make. Just getting the ball detent right on a folder is more difficult than anything on a Bali. The Bali has no lock. It is not a corner cut... just no added corner. The lock on a folder requires tighter tolerances than on any Bali... except the axis... The axis allows for all kinds of travel on the lock face.

Most likely Balis just don't sell very well, all things considered, so the cost is beefed up to account for low(er) production... unfortunately the standards are the same as these companies other knives... which, IMO, is nothing special. There is no "low production" Benchmade, including "Gold class" that compares to other "low production" companies like CRK, Strider, ect... The Balisong is so simple, it's genuis. It achieves triangulation/locking completely frictionless which is outstanding. There really should be a push to make it understood that the knife is not illegal. CRK should make a bali... not for Mall Ninjas, but because of what it is... an almost ancient, but near perfect design.

I see the words "Gravity Knife" in a lot of law... The fuzz may "think" that a Bali is a "Gravity Knife" but they are mistaken. There is no way a locked-closed balisong can be opened by gravity.
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read above paragraphs.

if you think that, go ahead and make a bali, try it out before you knock it, I have.

yes/no, your hand is the lock but theres still spring latches, t latches, hammer latches etc.

completely agree

I think they would classify the knife under the 'opening under gravity, by action connected to handle, or centrifugal force'

Planterz said:
The titanium 4X series were cast, not milled (finished on a mill perhaps, but the main process was casting). If they were milled from a solid billet, they'd be even more expensive. It's my largely unfounded suspicion that their mold was wearing out, leading to the discontinuation of the line. Molds don't last forever, and new ones (especially for Ti) are very expensive. This would also explain why the QC/F&F declined in the later year or 2 of production.
Click to expand...

This theory interests me, how long do you think those molds would last? I wouldve imagined that the cost/benefit wouldve been worth it for Bm to continue the 4x series. Or maybe it was a combination of this and the fact that they wanted to move onto the 5x series and try new materials but coudnt/didnt want to increase production costs. hmm food for thought
 
brets-ftw said:
Ergos do have a play when it comes to flipping, flat handles dont twirl well and completely rounded ones have no centering point (as in there is a severe lack in control during rollovers), you need a blend between the two.

Impact may only directly affect the zen/tang pins but there is still vibrations that are shot through the rest of the handle. one of many reasons why people dont just flip CCC's, handles break way to often at this crucial point. obviously Ti handles this effect very well, that why they (BM) still use Ti in their balis.

there are more parts to have cut and made vs normal folders, so while technically not expensive still adds up through shear numbers.

this is semi-true. BM/Bradley used the same profile for the 4x/kimura series respectively because, well it worked, nuff said. others however have basically had to start from scratch as most dont want to copy others but to innovate in their own way.
Click to expand...
BM figured the ergos out thirty years ago, no R&D into the shape of the 4x handles contributed to the tripling of street prices.

CCC balis break for the same reason CCC folders and fixed blades break, they are cheap - not because they are balis. Brass, aluminum, and stainless steel also handle the effect well, everything but the low density cast pot metal handles it well.

A channel bali does not have more parts. Blade, tang pin or two, 2 pivot screws, bite handle, safe handle, latch, latch pivot. Add a couple extra screws and spacers for sandwich style, and a spring for spring latch. A $30 Buck 110 has a blade, pivot, lockbar, lockbar pivot, lock spring, backspacer, 2 liners, 2 front bolsters, 2 rear bolsters, 2 scales, and assembly pins.
 
hardheart said:
BM figured the ergos out thirty years ago, no R&D into the shape of the 4x handles contributed to the tripling of street prices.

CCC balis break for the same reason CCC folders and fixed blades break, they are cheap - not because they are balis. Brass, aluminum, and stainless steel also handle the effect well, everything but the low density cast pot metal handles it well.

A channel bali does not have more parts. Blade, tang pin or two, 2 pivot screws, bite handle, safe handle, latch, latch pivot. Add a couple extra screws and spacers for sandwich style, and a spring for spring latch. A $30 Buck 110 has a blade, pivot, lockbar, lockbar pivot, lock spring, backspacer, 2 liners, 2 front bolsters, 2 rear bolsters, 2 scales, and assembly pins.
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no but titanium tripled, which is 2/3s of the knife.

true but i dont see cheap knives or fixed blades breaking after a couple flicks or some use, ccc balis do because yes pot metal and also because the forces applied are increased.

as to that comparison, its not completely valid in that your taking a standard channel bali vs a knife with different aspects, something more fitting would be to compare the 110 to a 51, or in the reversal a 51 against a gen1 delica, thats only 5 parts, one solid handle, blade, blade pivot, lockbar, lockbar pivot.


heres how I see it

Channel Bali (bm 4xMC will be used for specificity)
- 2 handles (bite, safe)
- blade
- tang pin
- 2 pivots
- 4 washers
- Latch assembly (latch, spring, two screws)
- Clip assembly (clip, pin)

Total: 16 parts

Folder (scallion will be used for specificity)
- 2 piece handle
- mid spacer
- blade
- pivot screw
- 2 washers
- 2 body screws
- torsion bar
- clip assembly (clip, two screws)

Total: 13 parts

The reason i used this comparison is because of the many similarities between the two, were I to use a knife with inserts, a bali with inserts should also be used, as the 4xmc has a clip and spring latch the comparable knife would have to have a clip and some form of spring system. Here is the outcome. But this arguement isnt just about production parts its also about costs to manufacture, so looking at just a slice of the whole doesnt give you a proper demographic.


Id also like to add that if you can make a good quality (on par with the 110 to) inexpensive bali for $30 to add to this market I will whole heartily drop my arguement
 
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I agree, which I why I disagreed with your earlier statement that

there are more parts to have cut and made vs normal folders, so while technically not expensive still adds up through shear numbers.
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As you pointed out yourself, a 4xMC knife that costs ten times as much as a Leek before secondary market increases has only one extra part. So the number of parts does not affect the price. If this was true, the Sebenza would be one of the cheaper knives available. If the price of titanium goes up, than that affects the price of knives maade with titanium, not specifically balis. That is a cost that has nothing to do with the way the knife opens, and it affects all sorts of folders because they all have a titanium variant made by someone.

I liked the way my BM balis flipped, but they had the loosest pivots of any of my balis, so the tolerance argument just isn't doing it for me. The $75 online priced sandwich handled Kimura 1 I bought brand new had nearly no slop in the pivots at all, so those things just don't seem to be where the $200 price comes in.

But asking why a bali costs $200 is not really any different than asking why any other knife costs $200. There are variations of the same designs for $2, but it's about materials, workmanship, and consumer opinion of the brand names.
 
hardheart said:
I agree, which I why I disagreed with your earlier statement that


As you pointed out yourself, a 4xMC knife that costs ten times as much as a Leek before secondary market increases has only one extra part. So the number of parts does not affect the price. If this was true, the Sebenza would be one of the cheaper knives available. If the price of titanium goes up, than that affects the price of knives maade with titanium, not specifically balis. That is a cost that has nothing to do with the way the knife opens, and it affects all sorts of folders because they all have a titanium variant made by someone.

I liked the way my BM balis flipped, but they had the loosest pivots of any of my balis, so the tolerance argument just isn't doing it for me. The $75 online priced sandwich handled Kimura 1 I bought brand new had nearly no slop in the pivots at all, so those things just don't seem to be where the $200 price comes in.

But asking why a bali costs $200 is not really any different than asking why any other knife costs $200. There are variations of the same designs for $2, but it's about materials, workmanship, and consumer opinion of the brand names.
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It does affect the price. but not that much, which is why i stated that its only a slice of the whole. The Sebenza is one of the most expensive production knives isnt just from parts its also because of tolerances and workmanship. Otherwise it would be no different from a sage or a JYD.

ok point taken on Ti, but again were not talking about how it opens just cost and how they withstand the forces put on them.

as to the QC on your BM, that could be a singular case but as with any production knife there are going to be slip ups. all production knives have them its impossible not to. but it is in My experience that there have been less issues with quality balis as a whole vs quality folders. thus the higher tolerances. the Kimura series was also designed to be at the $100 mark as an entry level bali. I highly doubt the 4x were done so over simply being a very well rounded flipper. so one may sacrifice materials and pinch pennies to be under this mark vs the other which simply was made with intentions of good flipping, cost coming secondary
 
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All answers so far are wrong.
They're expensive because they're made of Unobtanium.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Knife.
 
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