Why aren't custom makers using the Axis lock?

Joined
Oct 5, 1998
Messages
1,830
It's weird how Mel Pardue and Allen Elishewitz's Benchmade collaborations now have the Axis lock, but no makers are using it on their custom knives. Have McHenry & Williams decided not to make this lock avail. for custom makers or other production companies? Who are these guys, custom makers themselves? I wonder how much it would cost a custom maker, or production company to license this lock for a knife. For customs, would the makers usually pay per knife, or one lump sum? Just curious.

-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322
 
My guess is that Benchmade is keeping it proprietary. It really is their ace-in-the-hole, so to speak, and I can’t think of any benefits of licensing it out. The small amount they would get per knife wouldn’t make it worth while. I know that Spyderco licenses the hole to custom makers for a fee, but a locking system like the Axis seems like a different level of collaboration.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
So Benchmade completely owns the rights to the Axis lock? I assumed they just licensed it from M & W, and it would be avail. to whomever wanted to pay for it. DOAH!!! What a waste.
wink.gif


-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322
 
I don't know what BM's license agreement with M&W is. My understanding is that M&W did not sell the thing outright, but has licensed it to BM. It would not surprise me if that license agreement includes some period of exclusivity, perhaps one to three years. Obviously, BM paid M&W for that exclusivity priviledge. BM may have also bought an option to renew that priviledge (for an additional price) when it expires. This would be a sound investment on BM's part: buy exclusivity for a couple of years and also buy an option to renew that exclusivity. After the first couple of years, see how it's going. If the Axis lock is a good seller and if the fact that it's a BM exclusive is worth the price, then renew. For M&W, it's money in the bank right now, nice royalty checks each month, and the promise of more money in a couple of years if their product is as good as they think it is. It'd be a true win-win deal.

Again, I have no knowledge of BM and M&W's agreements, but I can speak generally and guess that BM paid M&W an up-front fee, agreed to specific details about how the product would be marketed, advertised, etc. (obviously, M&W did not want the fact that this is their invention hidden). After that, my guess is that BM pays M&W a fixed royalty for every knife sold and may also pay a continuation fee for every year that the contract continues, plus have the option to renew that exclusivity after a certain time.

The biggest problem for a custom maker to license it is simply the legal costs associated with contracts, etc. If you're planning on making ten or fifteen pieces per year, it's not worth hiring a lawyer to read the contract for you. After the initial novelty wears off (and after any exclusivity agreement they may have with BM expires), my guess is that M&W will look the other way if any custom maker wants to make a few fine pieces per year. The other problem with licensing something like this to a custom maker is that when M&W licenses it to someone, they imply, legally, approval of that maker's implimentation of their design. With their approval can also come their liability. So, if they license a custom maker, he makes a poor version of their product, it fails and hurts someone, that person can actually sue M&W (and probably will since most custom makers don't have the big bucks that M&W (after getting all those fees and royalties from BM) will.

On the other hand, while the concept is rather simple, the devil is in the details and this is complicated little lock to make and make well.

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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
I love that lock. I think that they're just waiting for the lock to catch of a little bit more.... I don't know some of the exact details and such but I believe that the more knives out there, the moree BM has control of this new "diamond in the rough."


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-Humpty

Proverbs 23:2

AKTI Member # A000984

 
One of the problems in the axis lock is how it necessitates thicker liners/scales to support the locking bar.

I wonder if the whole system/concept can be improved using a spring loaded ball bearing vs a sliding bar.

The ball bearing could move along a slot formed by the slabs and jam into the tang as the bar does now, but being a simple ball bearing, it'd have the advantages of 1) requiring thinner slabs than the locking bar
and 2) being smoother to engage since it's perfectly round and there's no axial considerations in terms of jamming or binding against the liner.

The handles can be made as thick or thin as necessary in order to expose enough of the ball bearing lock's curvature for the finger to engage, and the tang might require some extra machining in order to mate against the spherical ball.

If this isn't too hare-brained, I wonder if it differs significantly enough from M&W's patent that another maker can use it (or maybe already has?).

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Longden Loo - Ventura, CA
Technology's the answer, what's the question?

 
I wish that more custom makers were using the Axis or Rolling Lock.

The only maker that I know of using the RL is Pat Crawford. I don't know what his deal is with REKAT, but it isn't stopping him from using the RL.

I'm sure that other makers could incorporate the Axis Lock if M&W were willing to make the deal attractive enough.

Axel
 
I think that Rob Simonich is also making custom Carnivours, using Talonite
smile.gif


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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
James,

I saw a picture for the Talonite Carnivour. I assumed that Rob supplied the blades to Pat Crawford.

Does Rob license the Carnivour design from Pat Crawford?

Axel
 
Both Pat Crawford and Rob Simnoich are licensed for the Rolling Lock. The Talonite Version was a three way agreement both Pat and Rob are very easy people to deal with REKAT covered most the legal fees. We also did the engineering and had the blades EDM cut for all three makers. Look for a Simonich design REKAT in 2000 a Crawford Carnivore Cub in two Blade Styles a Carnivore Tanto Blade and more in REKAT’s in Talonite

Bob Taylor

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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
 
In all seriousness, isn't the Axis lock almost the same as the mechanism used on the locking SAKs like the Rucksack? I've never seen one of those on the inside, but I have a SwissTool and can see some of the mechanism if I open all the blades on one side (yes, unlike the Leatherman, you can do that with a SwissTool and not ruin your whole day).

On the side of the SwissTool are two rectangular sliders that you use to unlock the knife the same way you would an Axis--just slide them back and return the blade to position. When you open a blade, the buttons stay still at first, then gradually start sliding back -- and at the end, they snap forward again to lock.
Underneath, when you open all the blades, you can see there is a metal stopper that is pushed in place by a spring (not a coil spring, more like the spring on a lot of scissors). As you open a blade, the pivot of the blade smoothly pushes back on the stopper, compressing the spring. When the blade is fully open, there is an opening in the pivot for the stopper to slide into, and the spring pushes the stopper back into position.
Shouldn't this allow for some prior art on some axis-like locks? I'm sure the two types are not exactly the same, but maybe Victorinox would be willing to license their version for some custom makers.
 
Axel Yup, Bob Taylor is exactly right about the licensing. I like to call the version of the Carnivore I make the Menage a trio, I cant spell it but you know what I mean! A 3 way deal. The Carnivore is a Pat Crawford design, the Rolling Lock is patented by REKAT, and I am the supplier of Talonite. As far as I am concerned, the Rolling Lock smokes everything out there! There are certainly other good locks out there but after playing with and building rolling lock knives I like them the best out of all of them. In the knives I am building, I use all REKAT lock parts, the quality of the parts are much better than I can make in my shop. (heat treated 440-C) The Carnivore is also a great design, and combine the Rolling Lock, the Carnivore, and Talonite and you have a great knife to say the least! I feel very fortunate to have been licensed to use this great lock. I would not advise anyone to try to copy it however as I have personal experiace on how tenacious REKAT is on protecting their patents!
smile.gif


And yes, REKAT and I are working on a colaboration in 2000.
smile.gif


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www.simonichknives.com
 
Longden, I don't think BM is compelled to use thicker liners on the Axis lock. The liners look about the same thickness as other BM's. If strength were a problem they could have gone with SS liners and these could have been thinner. On the 710 the liner / handle thickness is not as noticed since that is a big folder. On the 705 its much more noticed. Other than cost I can see no reason that they need to have the same thickness liners on both models. Having to house the omega springs means they need thicker scales.

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Roger Blake
 
If I'm not mistaken the liners on the 710 are steel. I don't believe the axis lock calls for a thicker knife. I have many folders that are thicker than my 710.

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Dennis Bible
 
Bob Taylor and Rob Simonich,

Thanks for the clarification on the Carnivour. I am actually considering buying a custom Carnivour. After training with an Escalator Trainer, I am extremely impressed with the Rolling Lock. Nothing I could dish out could get the lock to fail. I wish I could say that about the liner locks I have used.

Rob, are you still making the Carnivours or was it a limited run with Talonite blades only? If you are, I will need to decide whose custom Carnivour to order. I didn't see any mention of the Carnivour on your website. I would appreciate pricing and delivery time information on the Carnivours if you are still making them.

Axel
 
Axel, I still have a few that arent spoken for. I dont know about REKAT or Crawfors. I am doing the grinding on the REKAT blades and am shipping them some on Monday. They may be the quickest.

I make the Carnivore in anything but Black G-10. If you want one of those REKAT is the place to go. We are looking at summer 2000 delivery on the Carnivore from me at this time, sorry cant be more specific than that. Price depends on options, and I will be glad to discuss this by e-mail. (dont want a spanking from Spark or Mike!)
smile.gif


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www.simonichknives.com
 
Shootist. You are correct the liners are steel. I had assumed that they were titanium. Maybe the thickness is a strength issue. But why did they use such thick washers?

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Roger Blake
 
The Axis lock by design does have to be pretty thick. The spring has to be sandwiched between the G10 and the SS liner, so part of the G10 is thinned. If any thinner it may be too weak. All three of the axis models by Benchmade are the same thickness, even the 705.

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Johnny
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