Why Baton?

[Macchina]

Batoning seems to be the rage now around here lately. When someone says:
"I just got this awsome 24" long half inch thick INFI steel knife!"
Someone always seems to reply with:
"So what if it can cut things, can it baton?"
and the reply comes 2 1/2 minutes later:
"Yeah, I just split a redwood into kindling and started another wild fire in California." (Did you know that forest forest fires are started by nature, while wild fires are started by humans)

Then, on another thread someone post:
"I got a great deal on Ebay, a keychain SAK knockoff for only 99 cents" (with $49.99 shipping no doubt)
Then, a few posts down:
"So what if it can open mail and file hangnails, can it baton?"
to which the reply is:
"I took it out in my back yard, and found some sticks... I wouldn't say it's the best at batoning, but it'll work in a pinch."


This reoccuring theme brings one thing into question: is battoning really all it's cracked up to be? From the way I see it, the purpose of batoning is to get the dry wood from the inside of a tree during a torrental downpour in a survival situation. A few observations:

1. You have to cut the trees down first and into manigable pieces before you can start batoning them (don't say you can break them, if you can break them, you don't have to baton them). Something that is difficult when you only have an Opinel: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425239&highlight=opinel

2. Is the time and energy you put into battoning a log into toothpicks really worth it when most woods are filled with one thing in generally copious supply: WOOD!

3. Is split wood really worth the cost of your only knife (survival situation) or your expensive knife (hey guys, look at what my knife can do situation)?

4. What ever happened to burning everything else in the forest that you don't have to baton (birch bark is far more flameable, even when wet)


Maybe I'm just missing something, and the art of battoning is something that I will never understand. Or maybe, some of you agree with me that it's just some passing fad.

Whatever it is, I don't think you can talk me into wacking my Benchmades into logs. Stay tuned for my next discussion: What's the deal with those Bozos who took Pluto of the list of Planets !!!???!??!!

 

[KnifeAddictAK]

So can you baton your post?

Not sure on the whole batoning thing. Haven't seen it much on the busse forum myself, but it could be that guys like to know it works well for making kindling and gives them a chance to enjoy their knife without having to go all out to use it in the woods.

Besides, I'm sure at one point, how well does it flick or throw was/is common with certain knives too.

 

[KnifeAddictAK]

"I just got this awsome 24" half inch thick INFI steel knife!"
Someone always seems to reply with:
"So what if it can cut things, can it baton?"
and the reply comes 2 1/2 minutes later:
"Yeah, I just split a redwood into kindling and started another fire in California."

Dude!!! where is thatttttttt knife? I want one now

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Can you twirl a baton?

 

[Quiet Storm]

That was an entertaining read, you should post more frequently. :thumbup:

And you make a good point. Batoning is overrated.

There is, however, no good reason to consider Pluto a planet.

 

[Vivi]

This reoccuring theme brings one thing into question: is battoning really all it's cracked up to be? From the way I see it, the purpose of batoning is to get the dry wood from the inside of a tree during a torrental downpour in a survival situation. A few observations:

1. You have to cut the trees down first and into manigable pieces before you can start batoning them (don't say you can break them, if you can break them, you don't have to baton them). Something that is difficult when you only have an Opinel: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425239&highlight=opinel

2. Is the time and energy you put into battoning a log into toothpicks really worth it when most woods are filled with one thing in generally copious supply: WOOD!

3. Is split wood really worth the cost of your only knife (survival situation) or your expensive knife (hey guys, look at what my knife can do situation)?

4. What ever happened to burning everything else in the forest that you don't have to baton (birch bark is far more flameable, even when wet)


Maybe I'm just missing something, and the art of battoning is something that I will never understand. Or maybe, some of you agree with me that it's just some passing fad.

I agree with you that there is way too much emphasis on batoning. The main reason I started my Opinel thread was to show everyone that a 12$ folding knife made out of no more than 5 parts can baton just fine. SAKs can baton. Kitchen knives can baton, etc. People sometimes seem to get the idea that it's the holy grail of knife strength and durability, when I think it's been conclusively shown to be otherwise by my threads and other evidence. *Shrug*

It's useful when it's rainy out. It can be done quickly if you're familiar with the technique. Around here I don't see very many good tinders during rainfall. Dead pine needles are usually soaked, I've never come across some good birch bark for burning here etc. Usually finding a piece to crack apart is a viable option, but where I live I can usually find a good branch to baton quicker than I can find a good one to break up by hand. I don't cut them down from trees, live wood burns poorly. I look for branches in fairly sheltered areas so they're not too wet. If the rain is light to moderate, I won't even baton, I'll just whittle away the wet layers and easily get dry wood exposed. While this method is quicker and saves energy, it means you'll still have to search for dry kindling, or make lots of shavings to support catching wet wood. Batoning just kind of simplifies the issue. Find a 3 inch thick branch, baton in half, baton one half split into 4 pieces, take one of those and make shavings with it. Break the small splits over your knee for the kindling and once that all catches use the full half piece for a larger piece to catch while you go seek out some larger chunks of wood to burn.

Batoning is fun, which I think it part of the draw. It's also one more technique you can get under your belt, and skills / knowledge is always a good thing to have in the outdoors. Easy way to get tinder, kindling and larger splits all from one decent sized branch. Is it a crucial skill? In my experience, most definately not. That might be different for other locations with different materials and climates though.

 

[mete]

I don't know what the big deal is.I had to baton once so I wouldn't freeze my butt.I just did it ,with a 4" hunting knife. Maybe it was a natural thing from some background in woodworking but it was hardly a thing where you have to have a doctorate degree to do or a special knife !!!

 

[Trout Tamer]

I haven't been reading the pro-batoning threads lately, but, based on my own experience, I am a proponent of having a knife that experientially known to withstand batoning with aplomb. I agree with Vivi's take on the skill - it's one more useful tool to have at your disposal when in the wilderness.

As for what kind of knife I like for batoning, I prefer the blade to be thick (3/16"+), long (7"+) and made of tough, ductile steel (well heat-treated carbon steels; stainless, I'd be more picky). I'd also practice extensively with the specific knife to have prior knowledge of its strengths and limitations.

 

[Macchina]

I conceed that it is a skill that would be better learned than not. There are a few situations in which I would risk my only knife to get warm. I just see it as more of a test of a knifes strength, and all to often I see knives tested like this that are not intended to have strength in that way. On the second note, Pluto defininetly deserves to be a planet, if a group of 484 astronomers can get together and declare Pluto off of the list, then 484 anthropologist can get together and declare that the Dutch are not exactly human! How about 484 chemist declaring that Seaborgium (Sg 106) is no longer an element, how would that make you feel, because it would definently ruin my day! I'm just saying that we should have voted as planet to kick Pluto off the list, how would we have felt if 484 Plutoniums (?) voted us off the planet list... we'd feel like crap!

 

[hlee]

I'll carry a hatchet, and a medium knife, and a small knife. Maybe I am just too young (28) to have caught the ultra light backpacker bug.

I read in Science (July 2006?) that if a new definition of "planet goes into effect, Pluto and Charon will be considered binary planets. Currently, Charon is considered a moon of Pluto. And, a large asteroid in the asteroid belt (I forget its name, but it IS named if that tells you anything about size) would be upgraded to planet. And, the as yet unnamed object beyond Pluto would be considered a planet. And, it opens the door for the inclusion of a host of other sun orbiting rocky masses. The proposed definition is any body, with enough mass, and thus gravity, to pull itself into a spherical shape, not orbiting another planet, orbiting a star, and not a star itself. So, because the center of gravity of the earth-moon system is within the earth, the moon would stay a moon, even though it passes all of the other tests. However, because the center of gravity of the Pluto-Charon system is outside of either of them, they would be considered binary planets. Additionally, this new naming scheme proposes naming all "planets" beyond Neptune as "plutons." While the definitions of "human" and "element" are based upon intrinsic composition, "planet" is arbitrary. The astromomers are trying to define "planet" in a fundamental way, using physical properties as a guide. Declassifying pluto as a planet (based on some arbitrary size limit) is less like saying the Dutch are not human, and more like saying childern cannot be citizens because they are too small and live with their parents. I guess this definition went down in flames.

This has kind of gotten off topic, so I'll end with: If I ever find myself lost in the Plutonian wilderness in a rainstorm, I would prefer to have a hatchet and a couple of smaller knives for wood gathering and fire building as each is more specialized to a specific task, and I don't mind the extra weight in my pack.

Edited to add the following and the bolded above.
I guess I'm not completely up to speed. Dwarf planet. Anyone interested in the "planetary debate" should read the following article.

PLUTO:
Underworld Character Kicked Out of Planetary Family
Science 1 September 2006:
Vol. 313. no. 5791, pp. 1214 - 1215

"... As it turned out, resolution 5A (including the dynamical criterion) passed by a margin so wide that no formal count was deemed necessary, and its sibling 5B was soundly defeated. At 3:32 p.m. European time, Pluto ceased to be a planet... The Plutonic wars aren't over yet. "This is a sloppy, bad example of how science should be done," says Stern, who was not at the meeting. In protest, he and others have already withdrawn articles from an upcoming edition of a professional solar system encyclopedia after the editor requested them to change Pluto's status in the articles. A petition against the accepted planet definition is already circulating among planetary scientists."


It seems that creating a definition of "planet" is far more difficult than of "human" or "element" or even "citizen."
One expert is a resolution, two experts is a debate, and anymore than that is FUBAR.

 

[T.K.C.]

I agree that this IS a very entertaining read! Please DO post more often michaelmcgo. And as for the Pluto thing, I am with you on that.

 

[znapschatz]

That was an entertaining read, you should post more frequently. :thumbup:

And you make a good point. Batoning is overrated.

There is, however, no good reason to consider Pluto a planet.

By what politic or fraud did that iceball get elevated, anyway? Weren't we all happy with Neptune (the mystic) as our outrider? When the atronomers butted in, astrology changed, and not for the better.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

That was an entertaining read, you should post more frequently. :thumbup:

And you make a good point. Batoning is overrated.

There is, however, no good reason to consider Pluto a planet.

Mickey's faithful pet dog Pluto

starred in 48 of his own cartoons, but also appeared along with Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in many of their cartoons. Pluto was created as an actual dog character, with no speaking voice, as opposed to Goofy, who was created as a human character. The dog who would eventually evolve into Pluto made his debut as a bloodhound in the Mickey Mouse cartoon "The Chain Gang" in 1930. Later that year he appeared as Minnie Mouse's dog, Rover, in "The Picnic," and the following year finally became Mickey's dog Pluto in "The Moose Hunt." Favorite sayings: "Grrr ..." "Snort!" "Sniff, sniff, sniff ..." "Bark! Bark!"

 

[Quiet Storm]

When the atronomers butted in, astrology changed, and not for the better.

Huh?

 

[Bastid]

Done a lot of remote hiking and camping in my day with the longest time out two solid weeks in Glacier Park and and another long stint with no civilized contact in the Canadian Rockies on another occasion. Never stayed one night in the same place. Never needed to baton anything to build a shelter, fire or stay warm. (Keep in mind I do not use a knife to dig, chop concrete or rocks either.)

I find the whole notion a pretty silly and stupid thing to do with a knife. I just do not see the necessity under any conditions that I might encounter. I am impressed with a knife that does stand up to what I consider this type of silly abuse though.

 

[OwenM]

All this fuss about nothing.
Batoning's not even hard on a suitable knife. It's a simple technique that's sometimes useful for getting available wood into a more usable state. Sometimes kindling isn't made to order, a chunk of wood needs to be split 'cause it's wet, or the fire isn't at a stage where it will burn a piece that large yet. Maybe you'll use it, maybe you won't. Depends on where you are, and what's available.

I find the whole notion a pretty silly and stupid thing to do with a knife. I just do not see the necessity under any conditions that I might encounter.

Must be nice to know it all:jerkit:

 

[db]

I'm also one who has neverhad to baton to split wood. I've meant to try it just to do it but never really remember to do it when I'm making a fire. First Schrade, then Comillus, and now Pluto? I am starting to hate change.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

I have batoned and split wood a few times, it is easy, and splits the wood with minimal effort. It is not hard on the knife- unless there is something seriously wrong with the steel, heat treat, or design.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

From the way I see it, the purpose of batoning is to get the dry wood from the inside of a tree during a torrental downpour in a survival situation.

The purpose is to provide more force to the knife than you can by chopping with it or simply pressing into it. How you use this is only limited by your imagination+experience.

You have to cut the trees down first and into manigable pieces before you can start batoning them (don't say you can break them, if you can break them, you don't have to baton them).

You often baton to split and you can also baton wood to length wood far larger than you could break by hand.

Is the time and energy you put into battoning a log into toothpicks really worth it when most woods are filled with one thing in generally copious supply: WOOD!

It often saves time and effort because it expands the list of materials you can use for a given purpose. It actually takes very little time to baton a knife through wood unless the knife is really delicate like a SAK blade or similar. The only thing which would be really demanding would be to try to split a piece of spruce which was cross knotted or similar.

Is split wood really worth the cost of your only knife (survival situation) or your expensive knife (hey guys, look at what my knife can do situation)?

You don't rely on methods/gear you are unfamiliar with in a survival situation.

What ever happened to burning everything else in the forest that you don't have to baton (birch bark is far more flameable, even when wet)

Not every tree has similar bark, and that bark has a very short burn time.

I just do not see the necessity under any conditions that I might encounter. I am impressed with a knife that does stand up to what I consider this type of silly abuse though.

You really don't see the utility in one of the core fundamental methods in wood working? Though of course a carpenter doesn't generally call it batoning because they don't focus on the application of the force. They would simply refer to it as cutting or splitting. A reverse poll strike with a splitting axe for example is utilizing the same effect, hitting the back of the tool to increase the cutting ability.

One of the main reasons you use impacts on blades in wood working is for splitting to break the wood into pieces which both allows you to work with different sections and of course it provides multiple pieces of stock usually with different grain alignment. It should not be hard to see the massive potential for utility in that. Generally it is easier to control with blades than axes hence froes and hack knives which are so designed.

For outdoor work it simply allows a blade to cut under a much greater force than can be supplied otherwise which of course raises the cutting/splitting ability of the knife by an order of magnitude. It makes the work many times faster, easier and safer as in general does anything which gives you more options when you are familiar with them.

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

"Yeah, I just split a redwood into kindling and started another wild fire in California." (Did you know that forest forest fires are started by nature, while wild fires are started by humans)

So .... you're saying that Smokey the Bear has been wrong all along, saying, "Remember, only you can prevent forest fires?"

Following up on what Cliff said, batoning a knife isn't fundamentally different than using a mallet with a wood chisel.