Why clad VG-10 in 420 ????

L

Lavan

Joined
Nov 8, 2000
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Seems senseless to me. The process to clad a core of VG-10 must be MORE expensive than just making the blade out of solid VG-10.
All I can see it doing is making the blade more susceptible to scratching.
I have a clad Fallkniven U-2 and the blade is scratched all to hell.
But the POWDERED steel might not be as durable as a solid VG-10.

It just don't make no sense.

:confused:
 
Fallkniven had testing done at a university lab that shows laminated VG10 is about 20% stronger than solid VG10 for side flex.

I believe that is generally the primary idea behind laminated super steels. A hard, but less flexible core for edge retention, a softer more flexible laminate to support the core and provide additional strength.

You can go to Fallknivens website and click on the break test link for more info.

Kevin

EDIT here is the link http://www.fallkniven.com/en/breaktest
 
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Yeah, I think it's a good idea for a big chopper like Fallknivens Thor bowie. :thumbup:

Not sure if you get as much benefit with a smaller knife though.

- wondeing, ...How rust resistant is VG-10? ...is it about the same as 420?
 
Dag-nabit said:
Fallkniven had testing done at a university lab that shows laminated VG10 is about 20% stronger than solid VG10 for side flex.

I believe that is generally the idea behind laminated super steels. A hard, but less flexible core for edge retention, a softer more flexible laminate to support the core and provide additional strength.

You can go to Fallknivens website and click on the break test link for more info.

Kevin

EDIT here is the link http://www.fallkniven.com/en/breaktest
Click to expand...

Yes. The idea with laminated steel is to end up with a blade that has excellent edge retention with greater toughness than the core steel alone provides.

I agree with BryFry as well. I'm not sure that I understand the benefit in a smaller blade.

While I haven't seen any data, I would expect 420 to have better corrosion resistance than VG10. Carbon is not good for corrosion resistance. The higher the carbon content, the lower the corrosion resistance.
 
knarfeng said:
While I haven't seen any data, I would expect 420 to have better corrosion resistance than VG10. Carbon is not good for corrosion resistance. The higher the carbon content, the lower the corrosion resistance.
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I don't have the expertise to discuss the finer nuances of metalurgy, but based on the carbon content alone, it is likely VG10 is somewhat less corrosion resistant than 420 (or 420J2 used on Fallkniven knives). But VG10 is alloyed with other metals that enhance corrosion resistance, so the carbon content alone may not be entirely indicative.

Based on my personal experience having used several laminated, and solid, VG10 blades from various manufactures, is that VG10 has excellent corrosion resistance.

Many of my VG10 knives are used in the kitchen where they are routinely subjected to wet conditions and acidic foods. They are extremely corrosion and patina resistant.

In laboratory testing 420 may well prove to have better corrosion resistance, but in day to day use, the difference is not significant.

Kevin
 
I think that lamination makes sense with harder steels than VG10, like ZDP-189.
At least for folders, I don't think that it is needed or helpful.
 
arty said:
I think that lamination makes sense with harder steels than VG10, like ZDP-189.
At least for folders, I don't think that it is needed or helpful.
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Let me start by saying I'm not disagreeing because I really don't know, and I'm not looking to start a pissing match. But for the sake of open discussion.....

As a general rule of thumb, the harder the metal, the more brittle it becomes and it becomes more susceptable to fracture rather than flex. (Various elements are alloyed into the steel to offset this somewhat, but as a generalized statement this is a challenge with "super" steels)

So on a folder, or kitchen knife, with a thinner blade, lamination may be even more important with respect to toughness and strength of the blade.

Also for discussion it may be premature to dismiss lower production costs as another possible factor.

Super steels are expensive. Replacing specialty steel with lower cost laminate material may, or may not, offset or be lower than the cost of the lamination process. However there may be additional cost benefits further down the production line. Softer laminate materials are easier to grind, shape, and polish than harder steels so labor and abrasives costs may be reduced enough to make the completed product more cost efficient.

I don't know if this is the case or not, but thought I'd throw it out for consideration.

Kevin
 
It may ease production costs, but I am doubtful if the strength difference matters in a small blade for light use.
I have a Spyderco kitchen knife in VG10 and it is not laminated. I find it to be the best kitchen knife I have. VG10 is really good steel.
 
Lavan said:
Seems senseless to me. The process to clad a core of VG-10 must be MORE expensive than just making the blade out of solid VG-10.
All I can see it doing is making the blade more susceptible to scratching.
I have a clad Fallkniven U-2 and the blade is scratched all to hell.
But the POWDERED steel might not be as durable as a solid VG-10.

It just don't make no sense.

:confused:
Click to expand...

For some odd reason, the VG10 cladding pieces is soft on the Fallknivens so they scratch easily. The steel does harden though, it's VG10 after all. I have a Fallkniven TK4 in 3G (SG2 laminated by VG10) that I rehardened, and it no longer scratches (at least not nearly as easily).

I'm not sure why they do it, as SG2 steel is similar in toughness and corrosion resistance to VG10. Sure, a thin center piece of steel sandwiched by soft steel would bend better, but harden the sandwiching and that benefit goes away. But it should still be hardened or the scratching issue is too much.

Also, Fallkniven's VG10 edges outperform their SG2 edges in my experience, which makes cladding SG2 with VG10 make even less sense. Don't get me wrong SG2 is a better steel, just saying when it comes to Fallkniven their VG10 is better.
 
arty said:
It may ease production costs, but I am doubtful if the strength difference matters in a small blade for light use.
I have a Spyderco kitchen knife in VG10 and it is not laminated. I find it to be the best kitchen knife I have. VG10 is really good steel.
Click to expand...

I didn't know Spyderco made a kitchen knife, let alone a solid VG10 one. Any chance of a pic or a link so I could check it out.

I have a FK WM1 solid VG10 in my knife block at home. Great little knife but the blade is short and stout so no real comparison to the other laminated kitchen knives.

Kevin
 
cotdt said:
For some odd reason, the VG10 cladding pieces is soft on the Fallknivens so they scratch easily. The steel does harden though, it's VG10 after all. I have a Fallkniven TK4 in 3G (SG2 laminated by VG10) that I rehardened, and it no longer scratches (at least not nearly as easily).

I'm not sure why they do it, as SG2 steel is similar in toughness and corrosion resistance to VG10. Sure, a thin center piece of steel sandwiched by soft steel would bend better, but harden the sandwiching and that benefit goes away. But it should still be hardened or the scratching issue is too much.

Also, Fallkniven's VG10 edges outperform their SG2 edges in my experience, which makes cladding SG2 with VG10 make even less sense. Don't get me wrong SG2 is a better steel, just saying when it comes to Fallkniven their VG10 is better.
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Just a quick clarification.

Fallkniven 3G steel is SGPS (Super Gold Powdered Steel) laminated with VG2.

My experience is that SGPS holds an edge better than VG10, but it is also a bit more time consuming to sharpen.

For stainless steel, both are excellent performers IMO.

Kevin
 
Dag-nabit said:
Just a quick clarification.

Fallkniven 3G steel is SGPS (Super Gold Powdered Steel) laminated with VG2.

My experience is that SGPS holds an edge better than VG10, but it is also a bit more time consuming to sharpen.

For stainless steel, both are excellent performers IMO.

Kevin
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Yeah they call it SGPS and now 3G steel, but Takefu SG2 is the official name of the steel. Mine was advertised at 62 rc so I expected great edge holding, but I also owned Fallknivens in solid VG10 that performed better. Not only that, but the "SGPS" seemed to have rolling issues. I might have gotten a bad sample, or the sandwiching process comes after the heat treat thereby softening the steel. Who knows.
 
I believe the SGPS and SG3 are different. SGPS is SG2 clad with 420j, whereas the 3G is SG2 clad with VG2 steel. The SGPS only shows up on the U2, IIRC.

Dagnabit hit on something there a few posts up. When Spyderco came out with ZDP back when they had two Seki companies involved. The Delica went to one, the caly jr. went to another. The decision to go with clad ZDP on the Caly jr. was made because the contractor on the Caly jr. did not have a Laser cutter. They could only stamp it. Full width ZDP could not be stamped. The clad version could.

The other manufacturer that got the delica contract had a laser so they went with solid ZDP blades on that model. The Delica and Endura ZDP models remain solid ZDP to this day, the Caly jr. is history, but the Caly 3 ZDP is still clad.

So the story goes.
 
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SGPS is certainly a super steel capable of very high hardness and at the same time tough.This combination is not possible with conventionally made steels.
There are a number of Fallkniven knives with SGPS such as My TK-1.
SGPG will hold and edge much better than VG-10. SPGS makes a great field knife like the TK-1 and a DC-4 is all you need for sharpening. VG-10 is better for kitchen knives and can be sharpened with a steel or ceramic rod.
Laminated blades offer improvement for bending but cost is a big factor also.
 
The Mastiff said:
I believe the SGPS and SG3 are different. SGPS is SG2 clad with 420j, whereas the 3G is SG2 clad with SG2 steel. The SGPS only shows up on the U2, IIRC.
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Fallkniven's laminated VG-10 is VG-10 clad with 420J.
The 3G is SGPS ("Super Gold Powder Steel") clad with VG-2.

It's not clear to me if the SGPS being used is SG-1 or SG-2.
 
Dag-nabit said:
I didn't know Spyderco made a kitchen knife, let alone a solid VG10 one. Any chance of a pic or a link so I could check it out.

I have a FK WM1 solid VG10 in my knife block at home. Great little knife but the blade is short and stout so no real comparison to the other laminated kitchen knives.

Kevin
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http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=239

I have been using this knife since a year ago Thanksgiving. The only sharpening I have done is to run it on a stop a week ago - not much sharpening in 1 1/2 years.
I use the knife for just about everything a knife this size can do in the kitchen.
It is too bad that they were discontinued. The knife was inexpensive and works great.
 
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