Why clad VG-10 in 420 ????

Thanks Arty, that's a good looking knife. As you say, too bad it's discontinued.

Kevin
 
420J2 actually takes a mirror polish very easily. If 420J2 gets scratched it's pretty easy to get it back to a high polish using varying grits and then a metal polish.

I think that a lot of the time a core of "super steel" surrounded by a cheaper softer steel has alot to do with cost. It's a lot less expensive to surround a thin core with a cheaper softer steel.
 
"I think that a lot of the time a core of "super steel" surrounded by a cheaper softer steel has alot to do with cost. It's a lot less expensive to surround a thin core with a cheaper softer steel."

I was told much the same thing by a guy in the knife business, but don't know who to believe. I just received a Fallkniven A1 in solid VG10, and plan to buy another in laminated VG-10 just to see how they compare to each other. Should be interesting. ;)
 
Lavan said:
Seems senseless to me. The process to clad a core of VG-10 must be MORE expensive than just making the blade out of solid VG-10.
All I can see it doing is making the blade more susceptible to scratching.
I have a clad Fallkniven U-2 and the blade is scratched all to hell.
But the POWDERED steel might not be as durable as a solid VG-10.

It just don't make no sense.

:confused:
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VG-10 is a powder steel. The idea is to combine the advantages of a hard and soft stainless. By putting a hard core in the sandwich you do two things. You provide better edge retention than a softer steel would provide. You also make the hard part of the knife thinner so it is easier and faster to sharpen. Using a soft steel like 420 on the exterior of the sandwich does two things also. It increases the overall toughness of the blade by reducing the overall brittleness. And it provides a highly corrosion resistant exterior to the blade. It makes so much sense, I'm astounded only the Japanese and Scandinavians do it.
 
Hmmmm, so why DO only the Japanese and Scandinavians do it????
Inquiring minds wanna know!
 
knarfeng said:
While I haven't seen any data, I would expect 420 to have better corrosion resistance than VG10. Carbon is not good for corrosion resistance. The higher the carbon content, the lower the corrosion resistance.
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I don't have exact comparison, buy approximation can be made using molar masses or atomic counts of those two alloys:
VG10 vs 420 steel composition comparison

There, on average 420 has 23 atoms of Carbon for 250 atoms of Chromium. VG10 has on average 83 atoms of C for 288 atoms of Cr.
Even if all the C in VG-10 forms carbides with other alloying elements (Mo, Co, V, etc) that still leaves more than twice the Carbon atoms in VG-10 to react with Cr in VG-10.
Rust resistance depends on the amount of free chromium, not bound in carbides, and I figure Nickel too. Also, in all carbides I saw 1 atom of Carbon ties up more than one atom of carbide former, for Cr it's Cr3C2.

Of course this is overly simplified, but even then it still shows more or less what is being observed.
 
rifon2 said:
Fallkniven's laminated VG-10 is VG-10 clad with 420J.
The 3G is SGPS ("Super Gold Powder Steel") clad with VG-2.

It's not clear to me if the SGPS being used is SG-1 or SG-2.
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The core of the SGPS / 3G steel lamination is SG-2, but I'm not sure whether the outer layer is VG-2 or VG-10.

The laminated steel used in fallkniven is made, anyway, by Takefu Special Steel Co. Ltd.
 
Some companies use VG10 as a core and a decorative Damascus steel as outer layers. Mcusta does this, as do many other companies. The Mcusta knives use a stainless Damascus clad over the VG10 core...purely a decoration on the functional core VG10.
 
Gator97 said:
Rust resistance depends on the amount of free chromium, not bound in carbides, and I figure Nickel too. Also, in all carbides I saw 1 atom of Carbon ties up more than one atom of carbide former, for Cr it's Cr3C2.

Of course this is overly simplified, but even then it still shows more or less what is being observed.
Click to expand...

It's that Cr23 C6 carbide that causes the most trouble. Sucks the Cr right outta there.
 
Companies use lamated steels for a varity of reasons.

To make the blades tougher and or stronger.

To aid in stain resistance.
 
Marvin8 said:
Hmmmm, so why DO only the Japanese and Scandinavians do it????
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the Japanese have a long and rather proud history of laminating steel.

i don't know about the Scandinavians, except that "Swedish" Fallkniven knives have their blades made in Japan.
 
sambo. said:
the Japanese have a long and rather proud history of laminating steel.

i don't know about the Scandinavians, except that "Swedish" Fallkniven knives have their blades made in Japan.
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Helle's knives are laminate.
 
Laminating has one other advantage. By making the hard steel thinner, sharpening the blade is faster and easier. And yes, VG-10 is less corrosion resistant than 420. However it is corrosion resistant enough. I use VG-10 chef knives in the kitchen all the time. Never any rust. Only the the slight gray patina VG-10 takes on.
 
Knife Outlet said:
Laminating has one other advantage. By making the hard steel thinner, sharpening the blade is faster and easier.
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I don't think so. If you look at the Caly 3 CF, for example, the entire length of steel after the hamon line is ZDP-189. From that point to the edge, it's ZDP-189, just as if it were a solid block. The thickness at the edge and bevels is the same.
 
I can support some of the comments.

The Japanese are very good at laminating. Actually they generally cut a slot into the edge of the sheet and insert the core.

They can reduce costs with a lamitate. High performance steels are quite expensive per lb.

They can add corrosion resistance and toughness with a laminate.

Exotic steels can be very hard on tooling or require a laser (expensive). Laminating with a softer steel makes stamping feasible.

There is also the eye candy of the laminate on the edge.

With the Yen being consideraly srtronger than the US Dollar, many knifemakers in Seki are finding it difficult to compete in today's marketplace. Finding ways of reducing cost without reducing quality is important, even if only a few cents.

Falkniven is to be commended for retaining their Seki maker and maintaining high quality depsite the added cost of dealing with the strong Yen.

sal
 
knarfeng said:
Yes. The idea with laminated steel is to end up with a blade that has excellent edge retention with greater toughness than the core steel alone provides.

I agree with BryFry as well. I'm not sure that I understand the benefit in a smaller blade.

(REST DELETED).
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I wonder if the dubious benefit also applies to the fact that it's a folder, and not just blade size. If by toughness we're talking about the breaking or bending strengths, wouldn't a folder fail along its pivot first?
 
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