Why do some people, some authors specifically, recommend against a good sharp edge? I have several books on knives and sharpening and some say that shaving sharp edges are not the best and will "roll". The particular one I'm thinking of also says that stones are the only way to get a good edge, which sounds a little short sighted to me. Some authors, like Wayne Goddard and Ed Fowler, recommend a working edge obtained with a Norton Fine India stone, but even their working edges will still shave hair off their arm, which qualifies as really sharp to me. Any thoughts?
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Why do some people dislike a really sharp edge?
- Thread starter me2
- Start date
I think they mean that thin edges will roll, if I sharpen a knife at 20degrees with a 300grit stone, it'll barely shave, if I finish the same knife with a strop loaded with .5micron CrO at 20degrees, it'll pop hairs all over and I get better edge retention.
Some people just think a sharp knife has a low angle and automatically assumes it is weak, they don't think about the grit of the final finish.
I wouldn't bother listening to someone who says there is only 1 way of getting a good edge.
i have plenty of custom knives that will shave and still cut good even after quite a bit of use. the one i made that i call k II is one that can still shave even after chopping down a few small trees or chopping through some dry red or white elm. a buddy asked me a question one day after seeing me get cut by a knife i made when the edge lightly touched my finger. he asked if i can not get a knife quite so sharp. i asked him why? its a knife and its supposed to be sharp. i do have a ceramic knife that i sharpened to a working edge and it cuts great in some situations where a shaving sharp edge would work better for others.
I think you guys may be right. It seems that there is a general assumption that sharp blades have to be thin. I have heard several people say or write that very sharp blades will dull, and that a knife will basically hold a dull edge longer than a sharp one
. I sharpen my Cold Steel Panga to a hair shaving edge and it held it for months, as long as I didnt hit the ground with it. It even went through a 1" oak dowel and would still catch hair on my arm. It sounds like everyone may be playing with different rules, which leads to confusion.
. I sharpen my Cold Steel Panga to a hair shaving edge and it held it for months, as long as I didnt hit the ground with it. It even went through a 1" oak dowel and would still catch hair on my arm. It sounds like everyone may be playing with different rules, which leads to confusion.a knife with a thick edge can be just as sharp as one with a thin edge. you just have to know how to sharpen a thick edge knife. the chopper i made for brian jones is thick and you could shave your face with it. he even said it would shave even after chopping through drywall which should have trashed the edge.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2009
- Messages
- 105
While I'm no expert, here's my 2 cents: I think a lot of people are afraid of a really sharp edge. Like, you will hurt yourself with a razor edge when less than that will do the job. OTOH, we all know that a sharp blade is safer. The other reason has already been mentioned. If you sharpen the blade with the right angle, not like a thin razor, it will last a lot longer only needing a touch-up now and then. Keep in mind that many EDC's are used for everything from cutting to prying to god knows what.
Here is another thought...
A razor edge sharpened to 15,000 grit will not cut a tomato as well as an edge sharpened to 600 grit. The finer edge is too smooth to cut the tomato skin! (A razor sharpened to 60,000 grit will cut it but not as well.)
A rougher grit edge is better for cutting fiberous materials such as rope.
A rougher edge is better for slicing (which is why a $2.95 Ginsu cuts bread better than most well sharpened Chef's knives.)
A finer edge is better for 'push cutting' such as whittling and wood carving.
Is the question 'why are people afraid of sharp knives,' or why don't people like sharp knives?
Stitchawl
A razor edge sharpened to 15,000 grit will not cut a tomato as well as an edge sharpened to 600 grit. The finer edge is too smooth to cut the tomato skin! (A razor sharpened to 60,000 grit will cut it but not as well.)
A rougher grit edge is better for cutting fiberous materials such as rope.
A rougher edge is better for slicing (which is why a $2.95 Ginsu cuts bread better than most well sharpened Chef's knives.)
A finer edge is better for 'push cutting' such as whittling and wood carving.
Is the question 'why are people afraid of sharp knives,' or why don't people like sharp knives?
Stitchawl
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2006
- Messages
- 2,809
I must respectfully disagree.
All of my blades are polished to at least .5 micron, and the "top end" steels are polished to .25 micron. Whether "V" grind or convex.
My knives will "fall through" a tomatoe. Some, like my Dozier's made of D-2 require a very thick edge, usually 15 degrees per side, because of the large carbides, but they're still polished and refined. My CPM M-4 knives are reprofiled to 12 degrees per side, and cut like light sabres.
All of my blades are polished to at least .5 micron, and the "top end" steels are polished to .25 micron. Whether "V" grind or convex.
My knives will "fall through" a tomatoe. Some, like my Dozier's made of D-2 require a very thick edge, usually 15 degrees per side, because of the large carbides, but they're still polished and refined. My CPM M-4 knives are reprofiled to 12 degrees per side, and cut like light sabres.
Stitchawl, I think this is getting to the point of the question, which is why do some dislike sharp edges. Goddard and Fowler and others advocate what they call a "working edge". These are finsihed at 400-600 grit, like your tomato slicers. This can still produce an edge that will whittle hair and catch hair above the skin. These are still very sharp, just not at polished, and for some applications they work better. I've heard, read, or been told that a razor sharp edge is not good and will roll faster than one that is not as sharp. I think this comes back to playing with different rules and using terms and definitions that not everyone agrees with or uses. My interpretation of these statements is that these people prefer a somewhat dull edge, because it lasts longer, to which I can only respond with confusion. Perhaps what they mean is they prefer a "duller" edge in terms of edge geometry, like Richard was talking about. They find a 20 degree inclusive edge rolls and dulls quickly, which I can agree with to some extent.
Perhaps Pilote can clarify. What do you mean by keeping your kitchen knives very sharp? Do you mean you use a thinner edge/lower edge angle? Do you mean you sharpen them to a higher polish that shaves hair easily? Also, what do you mean by utility edge? Is it left somewhat dull? Will it catch a few hairs, but you dont see much point in putting a lot of effort into it, since it will likely meet dirt, sand, sheetrock, or other material, thus ruining your efforts? Will it slice paper, both before and after meeting such materials?
I will try to clarify by an example. I test spray applied fire proofing at work and frequently have to cut pieces of it off beams and columns to take back to the lab for drying. Sometimes I have to use my EDC to cut it off. My EDC's are typically capable of shaving hair off my arm, or catching hair on the back of my head above the skin. After a few passes through the fireproofing, this edge is gone (for everything but my M2 HSS knife). What is left will still cut paper, unless I have to do this testing all day, by the end of which the knife usually wont slice newpaper, and will only cut printer paper with some effort. If I did this everyday, I can see where just a paper cutting edge would be about as much as was worth my effort when resharpening. But I resharpen to the shaving edge, knowing that with such use, it will get down to the paper cutting level, but I get a little more performance until it gets there. I see the same type of thing for people who install insulation. They use Old Hickory knives, and rake them through a pull through carbide sharpener every hour or so. These knives are not required to do anything other than cut the insulation, which destroys an edge pretty quickly.
I am basically trying to understand why people would prefer what I interpret to be a dull edge, when they could sharpen to a higher degree, and get better cutting for a while until the edge degrades to the semi-dull state they seem to be advocating. They still end up with a passable edge that will do the job, but benefit from better performance for a time before getting there. Of course, it could be my interpetation that is off, not what they are doing/wanting.
Perhaps Pilote can clarify. What do you mean by keeping your kitchen knives very sharp? Do you mean you use a thinner edge/lower edge angle? Do you mean you sharpen them to a higher polish that shaves hair easily? Also, what do you mean by utility edge? Is it left somewhat dull? Will it catch a few hairs, but you dont see much point in putting a lot of effort into it, since it will likely meet dirt, sand, sheetrock, or other material, thus ruining your efforts? Will it slice paper, both before and after meeting such materials?
I will try to clarify by an example. I test spray applied fire proofing at work and frequently have to cut pieces of it off beams and columns to take back to the lab for drying. Sometimes I have to use my EDC to cut it off. My EDC's are typically capable of shaving hair off my arm, or catching hair on the back of my head above the skin. After a few passes through the fireproofing, this edge is gone (for everything but my M2 HSS knife). What is left will still cut paper, unless I have to do this testing all day, by the end of which the knife usually wont slice newpaper, and will only cut printer paper with some effort. If I did this everyday, I can see where just a paper cutting edge would be about as much as was worth my effort when resharpening. But I resharpen to the shaving edge, knowing that with such use, it will get down to the paper cutting level, but I get a little more performance until it gets there. I see the same type of thing for people who install insulation. They use Old Hickory knives, and rake them through a pull through carbide sharpener every hour or so. These knives are not required to do anything other than cut the insulation, which destroys an edge pretty quickly.
I am basically trying to understand why people would prefer what I interpret to be a dull edge, when they could sharpen to a higher degree, and get better cutting for a while until the edge degrades to the semi-dull state they seem to be advocating. They still end up with a passable edge that will do the job, but benefit from better performance for a time before getting there. Of course, it could be my interpetation that is off, not what they are doing/wanting.
How dare you!
(extra smilies so you'll know I'm kidding.)What method/tools do you use?
Any way you can make a video of this? I've heard a couple of people saying this, but I've never seen it being done. I have Chromium Oxide at 60,000 grit and I can't that sort of cutting action, even with a straight razor. Acute angle and high polish but it won't fall though a tomato. It wil, however slice the crap out of my neck if I shave with it!
Sounds more like the old 'silk falling on Saladin's sword and coming away in two pieces.'
Please make a vid for us!
Stitchawl
I'm with you all the way.
I think this is really the crux of the issue; what needs be cut and how often to cut it. Installers of various things, butchers, etc., people who have a knife in their hands all day long have very different needs than people who might cut open a box or two, perhaps some string, or a chicken leg for dinner. A sailor on an old three masted schooner might be cutting 1/2" hemp and prefer a toothier edge (if not a serrated one,) than a graphic designer cutting vinyl lettering, or me cutting leather.
Perhaps folks are trying to compare apples and oranges...
There seems to be a lot of that going around. LOL! Many people forget that it takes both edge geometry PLUS the finish on that edge to make up a good working tool. Lots of folks disregard one or the other.
Stitchawl
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
- Messages
- 8,968
a duller edge does last longer, but it's better to start with a sharpe edge, get the benefit, and still have that duller edge after. Also, the lower the angle, the more pronounced the effects of using a coarser grit, since the edge is thinner and the large abrasive particles leave the edge more aggressive.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
Good discussion, Me2!
One of my penpals used to only sharpen his chef knives to 1,000 grit because they'd end up equally dull at the end of the day whether he stopped at 1,000 grit or kept going to 6,000 or higher. His knives that didn't touch a cutting board would receive a finer edge because they needed it (for fish and other delicate proteins) and held it.
Stitchawl,
I don't know about Ben's knives, but my edges that guillotine tomatoes will rest on the tomato skin until the tiniest amount of forward or backward pressure is applied and then they fall through. The only knife I have that will do so with just its weight is a custom chef knife that's quite heavy. Betting Ben sharpens better than me.
One of my penpals used to only sharpen his chef knives to 1,000 grit because they'd end up equally dull at the end of the day whether he stopped at 1,000 grit or kept going to 6,000 or higher. His knives that didn't touch a cutting board would receive a finer edge because they needed it (for fish and other delicate proteins) and held it.
Stitchawl,
I don't know about Ben's knives, but my edges that guillotine tomatoes will rest on the tomato skin until the tiniest amount of forward or backward pressure is applied and then they fall through. The only knife I have that will do so with just its weight is a custom chef knife that's quite heavy. Betting Ben sharpens better than me.
in general, when i sharpen kitchen knives i'll use medium grit then fine ceramic sticks (maybe more); because they're going to be doing fine slicing i want them to cut like butter...when i sharpen folders and fixed, i'll just use medium; i usually will not continue to fine, and usually don't strop (and i do have all these accessories available for me to use when i do); i just need them to cut and cut fast.
my definition of a utility edge is not continuing to a polished "scary" edge made so by moving down to progressively finer abrasions. my utility edge is perfectly fine for everything i'm doing with my non-kitchen knives. we're talking about making a very sharp knife even more sharper; there is a point of diminishing returns to this task and i stop when i believe i've reached that point. still, many would consider my idea of a utility edge a "dull" edge, and well, this is where i stop...
i care about keeping a sharp knife but i don't care about putting hair popping edges on every blade i own; i just don't have the time or interest to do so.
i completely understand the obsession most in this forum have about knives. and i understand the concepts of different grinds and geometry pertaining to the care and feeding of fine edges. but for me knives are just another part of the collection of quality tools that i own. i maintain them for optimal, not extreme performance.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2009
- Messages
- 3,198
I think this is really the crux of the issue; what needs be cut and how often to cut it. Installers of various things, butchers, etc., people who have a knife in their hands all day long have very different needs than people who might cut open a box or two, perhaps some string, or a chicken leg for dinner. A sailor on an old three masted schooner might be cutting 1/2" hemp and prefer a toothier edge (if not a serrated one,) than a graphic designer cutting vinyl lettering, or me cutting leather.
Perhaps folks are trying to compare apples and oranges...
Stitchawl
To me, this thread could stop here, as all that needs to be said was said by stitchawl. Very well, too I might add. :thumbup:
As a full time hands on construction worker, I don't need a knife in my tool bags or pocket that will shave baby's butt without a nick. I like a nice smooth, clean edge on my work knives, rarely more than 600 grit finished edge. In the area of cutting fiberglass binding straps, opening material boxes, trimming wood, sharpening carpenter's pencils, cutting down water heater/tub enclosure boxes for the dumpster, making wedges, trimming rough edges on lumber, flaking off loose paint, and on an on... I kill an edge if it is too sharp. The highly refined edge (even on my S110V Shallot) is just too fragile to last with a polished edge when used all day in conjunction with work. See how long your edge lasts when you are trying shave off pieces of a old, hard white oak for that perfect door or trim fit! Wait until you draw that mirror edge across a hidden screw or nail!
An edge that will easily shave hair, make tiny curlies from a pieces of paper and be used as a signal mirror just won't last with all the duties it will need to perform. Back it off to the 600 grit range as a finished edge and it will do great. I can go 2-5 days without sharpening, depending on what I am doing.
On the the other hand, I like having my gentleman's knife about as sharp as I can get it. It's duties are to dig out splinters, trim my cigar without tearing the cap, open envelopes, and to cut up and open small boxes. It may be used for a tiny bit of food prep at a buddy's house, or for some fine wood shaving for precision fitting. The sharper the better for that knife, and a little strop time seems to work just fine.
I know a lot of folks love their choppers as sharp as possible, and really enjoy their really big knives being that sharp. It is a testament to their skill in sharpening to get some of those big blades that sharp, but in my personal experience it just doesn't work that well when you put one of those monsters out to work.
I want a knife that can keep an edge I have confidence in and use hard for a couple of days without worry. In the end, I like going to 600 grit and stopping. I have rolled back edges on all kinds of knives when I am cutting and hit a screw, nail, or piece of debris that wasn't supposed to be there and couldn't see. When in dire straights and needing my knife, I can even resharpen out on the job with sandpaper (usually have a piece of 400 or 600 grit in the truck for work) if need be and have a good edge back in my hand. On a work knife I like an edge (and knife) that can be taken for granted and not babied. I want one that I can nick a nail, hit it a couple of licks with my 600 grit rod when I am home and throw it on the dresser. I don't want to look at a nick.
To agree with stitchawl in a slightly different way, I will say that everyone that uses their knives a lot know what kind of edge 'works' the best for their own application. To me it seems a pretty wide open field for edges, just depending on the knife's intended use.
Robert
So you're saying that an edge sharpened at 20degrees per side with a 600grit abrasive is more stronger than an edge sharpened at 20degrees per side with an 12000grit abrasive?
If a polished knife hits a nail or a screw, it may roll or get nicked.....the same thing happens to a knife with a rough finish.........
In your experience a sharp blade doesn't cut as good as a duller blade?
I finish my axes with .5micron CrO on a leather belt with a belt sander, it'll shave my arm when it's done, but it'll still barely shave and will draw cut newspaper after chopping up a bunch of wood.
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2005
- Messages
- 1,931
I've never heard of a chef or butcher that wants a dull edge, so their term "razor edge" probably refers to a polished and thin edge. I agree that many folks do not want a polished edge - they want that sharp 600 grit or Norton fine slicing edge.
Most of mine are polished, but in my experience a sharp slicing edge is safer than a sharp polished edge - it is a more controlled cut.
Now if they don't want thin, they just need to be educated to how thin you can go for your use!
Most of mine are polished, but in my experience a sharp slicing edge is safer than a sharp polished edge - it is a more controlled cut.
Now if they don't want thin, they just need to be educated to how thin you can go for your use!
Here is exactly why I asked the question. Can you describe the geometry of your edges? Are the sharp gentlemens knives thinner than the others? Are the 600 grit edges capable of shaving arm hair? Can you describe how you sharpen your utility edges for work so I can try and compare them to my regular edges?