Why do some people dislike a really sharp edge?

[Dog of War]

a duller edge does last longer, but it's better to start with a sharp edge, get the benefit, and still have that duller edge after.

That sums it up nicely. It's kind of like picking a wife: marry a pretty one, sure, she may not be so attractive when she's 60. But that's no reason to start with an ugly one and miss out on -- as hardheart said -- the benefit.

There are only two good reasons for the whole "working edge" argument: #1, that you're cutting such nasty, abrasive, noncritical stuff that having a well-refined edge really doesn't matter; and #2, that the extra time and work required to further refine the edge isn't justified by the additional cutting performance and edge life.

My biggest objection to the "working edge" argument as presented by Fowler, Goddard and others is that it requires so little extra time/effort to achieve a great deal of edge refinement over what you get finishing on something like medium or fine India (240 and 280 grit, respectively, IIRC) it truly is worth your time to take that extra step -- for example, a few quick passes on a Sharpmaker, Crocksticks, or simply using a ceramic rod or hone to add a microbevel. So reason #2 is mostly invalid, IMO. And as for reason #1 ... well, if all you're cutting is nasty, abrasive, noncritical stuff, what's the point of being a blade enthusiast, let alone a custom maker like Fowler, Goddard, etc.?

 

[Ed Fowler]

Many folks talk about the 'balance of a knife', To stay in context of this topic:
The edge of a knife needs to be balanced.
A balanced edge is one that takes into account the nature of the steel, the purpose of the knife and the individual who uses that knife.
When an edge is balanced it is good times.

 

[Sword and Shield]

In my experience, going finer than about 2000 grit at a maximum runs into the law of diminishing returns. Yes, it's finer and cuts slightly better, but the length of time it takes to put that edge on and get it right outweighs to me the benefits.

When I'm working, it's not unusual to see edges applied with a file, quickly. The 200-grit edge goes on faster, and is superior for the cuts I need to make.

 

[gunmike1]

My definition of a working edge is more of a very sharp slicing edge. By 600 grit you should be able to at least pop hairs, or with lots of care and excellent steel even begin to start whittling hairs and tree top hairs. That leaves plenty of teeth in the edge for pure slicing tasks like skinning a game animal where you can't really take advantage of the tremendous push cutting ability of a .05 micron edge that I like. When I recently skinned a pig, with it's thick, tough hide covered in coarse, dirt filled hair, my M4 Mule actually started slicing better after it's ultra polished .05 micron edge started dulling and grew some teeth. Now, if I was whittling I will take the super polished edge any day, but for pure slicing, especially with a steel like S90V that seems to like teeth (it doesn't like a very polished edge in my experience), I'll take a coarser finish that at minimum pops hairs (S90V on the DMT coarse stone pops hairs very nicely and has really nice teeth for slicing aggressively).

Mike

 

[me2]

It seems that for many, a really sharp edge is one that is very highly polished and thin. Here lies the source of my confusion I think. I have gotten shaving edges off 220 grit waterstones, 90 grit Norton coarse India stones, and coffee mugs, as well as the rest of my stuff. A "working edge" to me is still sharp enough to shave, but only takes the polish to a pretty coarse finish, relatively speaking.

I think I am seeing this from a new angle. I was perhaps spoiled by the screaming sharp edge I could get in a very short time on my belt sander w/ leather belt. This edge worked for everything, and was very quick. Those file applied edges are still sharp, as they cut whatever is needed, but they are coarse and unrefined. Again, I think most peoples definitions and mine are different enough that I was getting confused.

Many seem to prefer a coarser finish, which they call dull. Their definition of dull and mine are not the same, as when I think dull, I think wont cut paper or string or leather or anything else. In other words, there is a flat on the edge that can be seen when held under a strong light. Apparently most people just stop sharpening at lower grits and then use the edge this produces, though by my standards its not really "dull". I used the Norton "working edge" for a while, and still like it. Its just so easy to use the belt sander or follow the Norton Fine with 10 or 12 strokes on the Sharpmaker, or strop right after for 15 to 20 strokes, which takes less than a minute, that I go ahead for the extra bit of "ummph" on the edge. I can see where cutting insulation, fire proofing, sheet rock, etc, mean anything past file/coarse sharpening is a waste of time. However, files and coarse stones will still give what I consider a very sharp edge.

 

[midnight flyer]

Here is exactly why I asked the question. Can you describe the geometry of your edges? Are the sharp gentlemens knives thinner than the others? Are the 600 grit edges capable of shaving arm hair? Can you describe how you sharpen your utility edges for work so I can try and compare them to my regular edges?

First of all, I don't want to be drawn into a pissing contest of what sharp is to anyone else but me. What is sharp to you? What is sharp to me? What is the best edge for your knife? What do you use your knife for? Only you know. No one else.

I tried to be specific, and indeed I was that all of my opinions are based on my experience. Period. Note my pronoun reference was quite carefully chosen in my post.

It is sad to be derided for what may or not be a difference of opinion, but to view a pronouncement like this "well, if all you're cutting is nasty, abrasive, noncritical stuff, what's the point of being a blade enthusiast"
questioning the fact that knife use and enthusiasm is pointless for anyone, is pretty pathetic. I do so love closed minded intolerant folks...

And when it gets to the point of this profound hyperbole, it is no less than just obstinate silliness: In your experience a sharp blade doesn't cut as good as a duller blade?

Who would think that? How does anyone even respond to something like that?

Maybe - "Why no... I think a brick is much sharper than a razor... you?"

I cannot encourage everyone enough to do as they like, including those that shave with their axes. Enjoy your blades on any tool you have, sharpened any way you want, the way you want to.

In response to me2 I can't speak to your edges as I don't have your knives. IN GENERAL, IN MY EXPERIENCE, here's what I have found works best for me and my observations concerning my own personal knives, knives that I have used (in some cases) for years as a hands on individual.

My work knives are much larger than my gentleman's knives. With that in mind, they also have an assortment of factory grinds, from flat, saber, and hollow. With these knives, I use them for actual work. I can indeed appreciate a good knife and good steel, even though I am a construction worker! (OK, I actually own the company as well as a general contractor, but I do work with the guys almost every day.) These knives have heavier blades, and I while I usually ease the grind back a bit, I don't put an acute an edge on them. I would say that IN GENERAL, anywhere from my Buck 110, my RAT 1, an old saber ground BM (model unknown), and some of the other larger knives I have are probably sharpened to about a 20 - 25 degree angle.

My knives need to have a good, working edge all day. I sharpen the knife the way I think it should be sharpened, then adjust according if needed. If the knife edge seems a bit fragile, I may have it too thin. Or it may be too thin for the steel in the knife. The next time I sharpen it, I will lean towards the 20 degree mark. If it cuts fine and the edge lasts well, then I will push to 25 degrees and beyond when setting the edge on my Lansky. I do maintenance with a 12" professional chef's diamond rod (available at any restaurant supply) and once I get the knife where I like it, a couple of licks on the rod will tune it up nicely.

On my gentleman's knives, I ease the edge back more as the blades are smaller and thinner to begin with. Their duties are different. I like my smaller knives to be as sharp as possible, as I stated earlier: On the the other hand, I like having my gentleman's knife about as sharp as I can get it. It's duties are to dig out splinters, trim my cigar without tearing the cap, open envelopes, and to cut up and open small boxes. It may be used for a tiny bit of food prep at a buddy's house, or for some fine wood shaving for precision fitting. The sharper the better for that knife, and a little strop time seems to work just fine.

I ease the edges back as far as I want, with my cigar cutter having an edge about 1/8" wide on a blade 1/2" across. It is lousy for all around site work as it won't trim really hard wood very long, cut small wires well, or do minor prying without edge damage. It is great for sharpening my pencils to a needle point when I am trimming out a house using expensive trim, as well as slicing off a nib here and there to get that perfect fit. And as you can see from my first post, I occasionally strop, that includes this one. Those not interested in a good edge don't strop.

Although it should be self explanatory, for anyone still confused, I don't prefer dull knives. To me, it is perfectly fine to match the correct tool to the job. To me, the edge on my knives is no different than buying a saw blade for my different saws. The saw is the same; but different blades with different grinds and cutting geometry make it perform differently for different tasks.

Robert

 

[stitchawl]

"Working Edge" is just that. It's what works for the job at hand. A balance of bevel angle and degree of polish

For cutting leather I want a 'working edge' that is polished down to at least 15,000 grit on a blade angle of about 15 degrees, but for kitchen chores my 'working edge' is only 600-1000 grit and bevel of 20 degrees. My EDC is somewhere in between as far as grit, but with a bevel of 22 degrees as I often put more pressure on the knife when cutting, and frequently cut things of differing densities. I have a fillet knife that I keep with a 12 degree bevel and strop that to 60,000 grit.

These are ALL 'working edges.' Your mileage may vary.


Stitchawl

 

[sodak]

First of all, I don't want to be drawn into a pissing contest of what sharp is to anyone else but me. What is sharp to you? What is sharp to me? What is the best edge for your knife? What do you use your knife for? Only you know. No one else.

Hi midnight flyer,

FWIW, me2 is one of the really good guys on the forum, I think when he asks those questions, he's truly interested in your opinion. I know that I am. I don't work in construction, but I certainly don't look down on construction workers either. It sounds like you have a wealth of experience to draw from, I'm glad you are posting in this thread.

Sorry if some of the other comments are putting you off, I can see why....

For me, when someone uses the term "working edge", I always try to put it into context to see what they mean. That's just an example, BTW, not directed at you. From what you've posted about working edges, it seems that it needs to be a durable edge with no burrs to keep cutting all day long, but doesn't necessarily have to start of tree-top trimming or anything like that.

I'm one of the dark siders who like really thin edges and really hard steel. I fully admit that they are not for everyone, and not for every knife, but they can be fun. But I value the comments from people who use knives harder and longer than I do!

 

[Ben Dover]

Stitch,

May I assume that your "kitchen knives" are Euro???

My Euro knives are only polished to 2K grit at 15-17 degrees. My Damascus Japanese kitchen knives are polished to 60K at 8-10 degrees.

I'm hoping to eventually replace all of my Euro kitchen knives with Japanese Damascus knives, but the darn things are EXPENSIVE!!

 

[me2]

Based on reply's by midnightflyer and pilote, I think I've been misunderstanding what these writers were saying when they talked about an edge that is not razor sharp. It seems that they are talking (writing) about an edge that is not thin like a razor blade, and one that is not highly polished like a razor blade. This makes much more sense. As I pointed out earlier, what I consider very sharp edges are attainable from coarse grit sharpening. The writers, and some here, are advocating less polished and steeper edge angles for their uses, not dull edges. It appeared that the authors were proposing using an edge that, after the burr was formed, had it removed by cutting straight into the stone a couple of times very lightly. However, this appears to have not been the case, and this type of edge is a little silly when I think about it in context of some people who use a coarser edge than I'm used to. Then again, maybe this type of edge has a use for scraping or some other application that I dont use knives for. It would have been a good edge for cutting/scraping caulk from around old windows, instead of breaking the tip off my CRKT M-16.

 

[db]

I am very happy to see people starting to understand that very sharp doesn't mean super polished. You can shurly have a very super sharp knife at a 600 grit finish and a dull knife at a 10,000 grit finish. I personally like to get my knives super sharp at any finish. Isn't there a guy who makes and even will regrind factory knives, on this forum that puts on a killer 220ish edge. Hint T. K

 

[stitchawl]

Stitch,

May I assume that your "kitchen knives" are Euro???

Both European and Japanese. I live fairly close to Seki city and try to make a run up there at least once a year for the knife festival if not more often. (It was this past weekend and although we planned to go, something came up and we had to cancel.) During the festival there are street markets set up by all the makers and the prices are lower than usual. It's hard to resist buying more, although my wife tends to get the final say! :thumbdn:

My Euro knives are only polished to 2K grit at 15-17 degrees. My Damascus Japanese kitchen knives are polished to 60K at 8-10 degrees.

I keep my sushi knife at a low angle and high polish but my santokus I prefer to have at the same angle as my European knives. My large parer is polished further than my large slicer. Each knife gets treated a bit differently.

I'm hoping to eventually replace all of my Euro kitchen knives with Japanese Damascus knives, but the darn things are EXPENSIVE!!

OH YES!!! Keep in mind that ALL Japanese prices are usually about 2-3X the price of things in the States, (one apple can cost $3 in the supermarket,) so knives are expensive to begin with. Then, add to that the hand-made cost, the small shop cost, and the maker's name cost, and a good quality knife can cost as much (or more) than most folks want to pay!

Fortunately I'm lucky in that I find the pro lines of Wustof and Henkels knives to be almost as effective as I need in my kitchen, so instead of paying $300 for a paring knife I only have to pay $70! Perhaps if I was a chef using them all day long I'd insist on more. I have a couple of really good Japanese knives that I've slipped past my wife for when I'm really feeling creative in the kitch, but most of the time stick with the Euros.

Stitchawl

 

[Jason B.]

A knife can be sharp at almost any grit but I think the reason some people don't like a really sharp knife is because they have never seen one. A sharp is also dangerous with people that do not know how to use one, mainly because they have become accustom to their knife not cutting them when they slip and touch the edge. Another reason could be that they just don't know how to use a edge that's that sharp, most kitchens are full of knives that "never need to be sharpened" and the resulting cutting technique for the average user of these great knives turns into a sawing motion. When given a very sharp knife this person try's to use this same technique and fails because the knife is ment to slice.

Some cutting tasks do require a coarser edge simply because of the material they are made of and some select steels perform better with a coarser edge. Finding the balance for all cutting tasks is what I think the advocates of a coarser edge are after but in reality its not possible, it would be like finding the perfect knife with the perfect steel.

 

[THG]

I think a Fine stone (~25 micron) is good enough for a worker knife. Any finer than that, and you end up spending too much time just to destroy the edge again.

Such an edge shaves for me and catches my nail at the slightest touch. It doesn't split hairs, but I think it's more than sufficient, at least for what I do.

 

[Bigfattyt]

This is a good topic for discussion. I can think of several custom makers and expensive production knives that come with a very toothy edge. I use them that way (usually until I hit a stone or accidentally ding the edge in the sink or against a plate etc). Then I take the edge and convex it and strop it.

There are uses for toothy edges sharpened on lower grit (thinking about a 200 grit edge). For example one factory knife really cut cheese well. That edge now has a convex edge, stropped (not to a perfect polish, stropped on a home made ghetto strop with #6 polishing compound from the hardware store). That same edge now jumps hair, push cuts news paper easily, and does not slice cheese near as well. Much sticker when trying soft stuff like cheese. Works great for everything I use it for.

All my users have convex edges that I strop most days they get used. I have convex edges that are much thinner, and most that are still relatively thick.

For meat processing the toothy edge lasted longer without sharpening than some of the convex edges I was using. But the convex edges, I just hit the strop a few passes per side and sharp as new.

There are trade offs with ever edge configuration.

I really think most people are simply frightened with sharp edges.

My mom is a great example. She has junk knives that never get sharpened. Then my dad takes some time and sharpens them. My mom goes to the hospital for stitches on a regular basis, and it is always because she is careless with her knives. The last time they bought new knives, all sharp of course, my mom was always cutting her self.

I handed one of my very sharp convex edges to a relative who owns knives, and the first thing he does is runs his thumb length wise on the edge. The knives they carry are not even adequately sharp. You can't slice paper with them.

My dad is another example. He has knives that are very sharp. But every knife he carries is dull, and I mean toss it in the air and flip it and catch it without ever a care that it will cut you. And he knows a sharp edge. He just does not bother.

 

[looker]

I think the fear that a lot of people have with sharp (as well as large) knives comes from ignorance, ineptness of literally never having seen or used a sharp knife. I would wager the majority of home cooks learn how to use a knife / cook from watching cooking shows featuring a celebrity chef with poor knife skills, preparing meals that don’t require any type of fine, precision cutting. Everything is a rustic, rough cut done by “rock-chopping” (rocking against the belly of the knife) or heel cut. The knife need only be as long as the food their cutting and by pressing straight down with enough force to split the food, the can compensate for not having a sharper, longer knife and atrocious knife skills.

When my friends help out in the kitchen, some see the sharp knives as a good thing and take the necessary precautions (going a little slower, keeping their fingers out of the way, etc.), while others don’t get it and likely to hurt themselves or the knife. I deliberately keep an older, shorter knife less sharp for them. I also don’t sharpen some knives as sharp as or finely as others. My hard contact (cleaver, boning, etc) knives are less sharp than moderate contact / general purpose knives. Conversely, knives (slicers, filet, sushi) that I use exclusively for soft targets, no impact cutting…get the OCD sharpening treatment.

 

[gunmike1]

I am very happy to see people starting to understand that very sharp doesn't mean super polished. You can shurly have a very super sharp knife at a 600 grit finish and a dull knife at a 10,000 grit finish. I personally like to get my knives super sharp at any finish. Isn't there a guy who makes and even will regrind factory knives, on this forum that puts on a killer 220ish edge. Hint T. K

Actually, Tom Krein uses a 120 grit belt to get his tree topping edges . Like you are saying no matter what grit I am sharpening at I try to maximize the sharpness, as forming a very good edge at coarse grits sets the foundation for getting the sharpest possible edge even if you intend to polish the edge all the way out to .05 microns. With good skill and steel (and appropriate abrasives) at coarser grits there are definately some very sharp edges out there that have some serious slicing aggression. In fact, I've been liking S90V more with a 320 or 600 grit edge that pops hairs or catches some hairs above the skin much more than polished out more. That steel just slices like crazy, and so far I have been more impressed with the performance of very sharp toothy edges than very sharp ultra polished edges (M4 gets much sharper at finer grits). M4 loves a polished edge, but then again if I skin out a game animal again with my M4 Mule it will have a tree toppping or sharper 320-600 grit edge on it (if I haven't had too much caffiene this steel starts to whittle hair for me at DMT fine). That steel takes tremendous edges no matter what grit you finish at, so even with teeth it has excellent sharpness. Since I carry 3-4 EDC's it allow me to get the best of both worlds with my S90V Manix 2 left at coarser grits and some of the others polised out to .05 microns for great push cutting performance. I love the bragging edges, but sometimes when you need to do pure slicing (or even just a decent amount of slicing) a very sharp coarser grit edge is what you really need.

Mike

 

[richard j]

i have put hair shaving edges on a few knives i made using an 80 grit belt before just playing around. gunmike, the kershaw i sharpened for you was done with 120 grit if i remember right.

 

[Ben Dover]

How dare you! (extra smilies so you'll know I'm kidding.)



What method/tools do you use?



Any way you can make a video of this? I've heard a couple of people saying this, but I've never seen it being done. I have Chromium Oxide at 60,000 grit and I can't that sort of cutting action, even with a straight razor. Acute angle and high polish but it won't fall though a tomato. It wil, however slice the crap out of my neck if I shave with it!

Sounds more like the old 'silk falling on Saladin's sword and coming away in two pieces.'

Please make a vid for us!

Stitchawl

Well, first: I'm quite sure that I do not sharpen better than Thombrogan! He's a professional. I'm not!)

I use an Edge-Pro "Pro" model and the full array of stones and glass mounts with mylar tape and various pastes and polishes. I usually finish with a glass mount and paper sprayed with .25 micron, and then .1 micron diamond. (If the steel is worth that much work)

As for the tomatoe. Perhaps a bit of exageration, but my large kitchen knives will cut a tomatoe exactly as Thom described. Lay the blade on the tomatoe, and at the first tiny movement, it goes through. If I just lift the handle a bit, it goes. Of course, this is a Japanese chef knife with a 7 degree per side bevel and polished to .25 micron diamond.

But I've also tried cutting sisal rope and seat belt material. (A friend who operates a salvage yard allowed me to "salvage" several seat belts from wrecks! ) This is a very good test of practical cutting ability. In my admittedly limited testing with D-2, CPM M-4, S30V and S90V, the knife cut the sisal rope and the seat belt material more easily, and cleanly when the blade was highly refined than it did when only sharpened to a very rough grit like 1K.

I know this discussion will go on forever, and various extremely knowledgeable people will take both sides. But for myself, I will always use whatever method, tool, procedure, etc that I have personally tested, and found acceptable and/or superior for my uses.

(OTOH, I'm always looking for something better! )

 

[Jeff Clark]

There is no such thing as an edge that is too sharp so most of the issue comes from ignorance and sloppiness. There are users who are so accustomed to dull knives that they frequently handle the edges, bump the edges into their hands, and routinely apply high pressure for lightweight tasks. About the only thing that makes sense for some of these users are very dull serrated blades. The dull serration tips protect their fingers from contact with the sharp inner serration edges and the serrations guide them towards safer sawing action rather than hacking. If you reach into the knife drawer without looking every day your blades need to be dull.

There is a false notion that a 20 degree included angle edge dulls faster than a 40 degree included edge. It does not. The 40 degree edge may stand up a bit better to rolling on really hard material, but most knife cutting is on softer material. I choose an edge geometry for maximum performance most of the time, not for maximum performance for uses I only see once a year. If you hone to a low angle a fine grit finish really slices things like rope well and I see no reason to opt for a 600 grit finish unless I am in a hurry. When I sharpen 50 knives for the soup kitchen I do end up with a 600 grit finish, mostly because I am in a hurry. The 600 grit just cuts faster. The other reason that I do it is because I don't have time to reduce the included angle to 20 degrees. When my quick honing finishes at 18 degrees per side (36 degree included angle) I get better slicing performance when I finish somewhere in the 600 to 1000 grit range.

If you really have problems with your edge rolling you are better off if you use a convex edge. That is the way to get the strongest edge support with the thinnest general blade profile. I would first experiment with a smooth edge finish and only if that did not perform well would I try a rougher abrasive finish. I only would go to thicker edges after the finest thinnest edges were shown to cause a problem. You are thinking backwards if you start dull and never try thin and sharp.