Why do we put up with it?

Ken Cook

Ken Cook

Joined
Feb 19, 1999
Messages
2,959
Okay, here's the BIG question on my mind.
(Actually the only question, only got room for one at a time in there!)

We sit here at BFC, and while I haven't been to KFC in ages, I'm sure the same happens there, we bemoan the downright CRAPPY qualities of ATS-34, we complain about poor quality control, we gripe about our dislike of bead blasted finishes (especially without a commisurate drop in price from the mirror polish versions!) and yet we keep buying them!
I know, I know,
If I refused to buy knives made with ATS-34, I'd be stuck with a bunch of rusty clunkers, but COME ON!!!!
With all the great metallurgy at the disposal of the Knife industry, is ATS-34 really the ONLY choice?
Okay, so BM broke down and made an M2 version of the AFCK.
Back to the rusty clunker scenario.
Why can't we find a GOOD "stainless" steel with at least MODERATELY good corrosion resistance?
Personally, I don't care if the knife can withstand being submerged in salt water for umpteen hours, because even if the KNIFE can stand it, *I* cannot! (My tolerance is just about 2 minutes without SCUBA gear, after that I won't CARE if the knife rusts!)
I don't need a knife that will NEVER rust, I need one that I can sharpen, and I mean REALLY sharpen in a few licks on a decent stone. I need a knife that will not corrode as long as I wipe it down every day and apply a thin film of oil every week or so.
Why is this so HARD, and how do we get the knife industry to LISTEN???


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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!


 
Ken,

Is it specifically ATS 34, or the quality control of the manufacturer that's the problem?

For example, I have heard that BM takes their ATS 34 too high on the RC scale, resulting in more brittleness. Well, I just recently dropped my new BM Ares with the 154CM (American equivilent of ATS34) steel, and the 1/16" of the tip broke off. Wasn't a drop of more than 2.5' and only onto a tile floor and not concrete. I would have expected a knife to take that (shrug).

In terms of stain resistant, there are other steels... AUS6-10, 440C, CPM 440v, D2, among others that are being used by various manufacturers. Bead blast vs. satin finish? Matter of individual taste.

It comes down to getting the model/design you want from the manufacturer you trust doesn't it? The market place gets shaped by what the ELU buy or doesn't.

Now, I haven't really gotten a BM for a long time prior to the ARES. It'll be awhile and a really exciting model before I get another BM.

Now, the new KFF from CRKT... Not great stainless steel but servicable. Don't care for the bead blast but, hey, for the money, I don't mind sanding the blast off myself.
smile.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Why can't we find a GOOD "stainless" steel with at least MODERATELY good corrosion resistance?
Click to expand...

so is ats34, if properly heat treated.

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Ray
MesserForum.net

[This message has been edited by BladeMan (edited 07-09-2000).]
 
Sing: I bought a CRKT Crawford Kaspar yesterday and it is advertised as bead-blast but when you see it up close and personal it seems almost a mild satin.

[This message has been edited by rickmos (edited 07-09-2000).]
 
There are "other" kinds of stainless steels on the market and Crucible doesn't have the only alpabitt soup steels its just that they are the only ones that supply it in knife making sizes in North America, FOR NOW!!!
I have been experimenting with two new steels both a little different than anything else out there. So far so good, but they do not come in bars of less than 1/2 inch thick. This makes for a long and drawn out and expensive R&D program.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
ATS34 as stated above, if properly heat treated is one helluva knife. I like ATS34 so you won't hear me complaining. Look at a knife made by Lynn Griffith or one of the older MT Socoms in ATS34. Excellent using knives.

It's not a bad steel.

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska
 
Ken
I'm not a fan of ats 34 either and for a while it looked like chioces were limited in factory knives.
But stopping to think if it for a while the factory knife market today is better than it's ever been Knife collectors have so many very good quality factory knives to choose from it's hard to keep up with all of them.
Compare that to what we had a few years back when 440 ruled the roost.
We can get a knives in 440c which is a steel I've always liked. There is d2, bg, talonite, 440v and others I can't think of off the top of my head. That's not bad
considering how it used to be. Add the fact that no matter what your income you can find a quality factory knife. YA I get annoyed every time I see a pattern I like and i'm stuck with ATS but it's getting better.
 
We can get a knives in 440c which is a steel I've always liked. There is d2, bg, talonite, 440v and others I can't think of off the top of my head. That's not bad
Click to expand...

again, talonite is not a steel and its way to expensive, d2 is not a stainless, bg42 is almost ats with a few advantages, 440V and other pm steels are to expensive, to grind etc. ats is way better then 440c in edgeholding, and if ats is properly heat treated you should not have any problems with corroding. ats is a good stainless steel. certainly there are better steels out there, but as a allround steel in terms of edge holding, corrosion resistant and toughness its hard to beat IMHO.

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Ray
MesserForum.net
 
Blademan
I agree with your opinions. Ats works out well for the manufacturer and consumer.
But in reply to kens post the knife indusrty does see what the consumer wants and is attempting to make different offerings.
It's not likely to see ATS fade away in the near future for the reasons you stated. It works
I'm still very happy to see different blades being offered. It's not like the knife industry isn't listening.

 
Ken,

It does seem that ATS 34 is taking over the knife world. I have a good number of knives made of this stuff, but to tell you the truth, I'm not really unhappy with it. The pieces I have seem to work as advertised.

I am not however, convinced that ATS 34 is the be all end all as far as steel goes. That is one reason I have become a real Spyderco fan in the last year or so. I cannot think of another production company that has anywhere near the same number of steels in their lineup.


Mike
 
420V!!!!!! Talonite!!!! 3V!!!!! and its getting better.....they have guys working on making new steels right now....we are certainly lucky to be alive at this time in history...IMHO

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
There is a reason that ATS 34 has taken over the knife world and that is because it's "really good steel (RGS)", as Bob Lovelace used to call it. Whether it be in it's 154CM persona or the Hitachi version, it gets the job done. When properly heat treated, it is one of the best knife steels, for the dollar, out there. Superior to any of the fine blankable steels and on a par with 440C.

CPMs seem to have an advantage in the edge holding and corrosion resistance department but they are more expensive and harder to sharpen.

Same with BG42. I consider that to be ATS34 on steroids. Same toughness and better corrosion resistance at higher hardness. IMO it's the best production stain resistant steel around right now.

You have to face the fact that for a steel to be good enough to have high strength and good edge holding characteristics, it's going to have to give up something in the stain or corrosion resistance department.

If you can leave it in the kitchen sink for three days and it doesn't rust, you will be complaining about the lack of edge holding and sharpness. It's a matter of chemistry and metallurgy.

As far as ATS34 and it's preformance potential, check out the knives made by Strider Knives. I've seen these knives beat, hard, edge first against steel table legs and angle iron with no damage whatsoever to the edge. When properly heat treated, this stuff is awsome. Take care of it, keep it clean and oil it now and then and it will give you good service.

Or you can try Dendretic Cobalt or Talonite. Those aren't steels but they won't rust. Good edge holding too. 2 - 3 (or more) times the cost but, hey, it's only money, right?



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Dennis Wright
("Have a knife day!")

wrightknife@ixpres.com
 
ATS 34 may be alright for the factories but as a part time maker I am really begining to hate the stuff. Every blade from the last two 36 inch bars of 1/8 had black sh#t deep in the metal well down into the grind. I have very rarly had this problem with 440C but it has happened.
Untill I get some answers it seems like I am waisting my time with ATS 34, it used to be great stuff.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
i agree...for the price it is now I would rather use bg42....which isnt cheap...1.5 times more expensive...but when i started buying ats when it first came out it was $4 a foot...now its 12....how come??? i dont know...but I do know that although it is a good steel...better steels are being developed and in my opinion it has been eclipsed and left in the dust...I wont use it anymore.
 
Whoops!
As usual, when I go into "Rant mode" I make myself less than clear.
What I was trying to say, (short version) is that I'd be willing to give up a little of the corrosion resistance for a little more ease of sharpening.
I don't care if the knife won't hold it's edge long enough to field dress a sperm whale if I can sharpen it back up with a few strokes on a good ceramic or a Hard Arkansas in a minute or two.
But every ATS-34 blade I own, takes half an hour to sharpen up, and it NEVER takes the edge I want it to.
They don't even have great edges on them when they leave the factory!
"they" being BM, Emerson, and even Microtech(using the 154CM.)
Yeah, they're all GOOD edges, but compare that to the edge on a new (NON ATS) Spyderco and the difference is VERY notable.
I keep hearing what a wonderful steel ATS-34 is, IF it's properly heat treated.
If it's NOT properly heat treated then it's junk, and I'm beginning to think it's not possible to properly heat treat ATS-34!
The way that current production knives are heat treated is in a commercial Furnace. The blades are all "hung" in the oven until the oven's full.
Well, that oven has a "sweet spot" where the temperature is EXACTLY what it's supposed to be. Everywhere else, it's either hotter or cooler. So, maybe a dozen blades are perfectly heat treated, the rest are either too hard or too soft, but only a few are "just right." Of course, if the oven run goes off with less than perfect temp, then the BEST knives to come out of there are going to be off a bit, and the rest of them are going to be even less so.
Maybe I should just shut up and start buying carbon steel blades only, I dunno.

As far as the knife industry giving us what we want, I think there's the equal consideration that, we want what the knife industry TELLS us we want.
There's a lot of hype, and some of us are more easily hyped than others, but I think we ALL are guilty of falling for it from time to time.
I'd be very interested in seeing some of the more popular models offer blades in different steels or some of the exotics like Talonite, Dentritic or other.
Whaddya think?



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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!


 
Yeah, that IS the short version!
biggrin.gif


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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!


 
The new Blade magazine has an interesting article on best factory steels...

440a and BG-42 come to the top when several different factors are concidered...

440A would be a good choice for you in terms of stain resistance and ease of sharpening...

It works for Boker and others...
smile.gif


Running Dog

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Running Dog Knife Company
mmurphy@premier1.net

www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com
 
We bemoan the new steels, because they are very good, but we still hark over the cutting ability of that: "old black kitchen knife that grandpa used". The ones mottled with stains, with half the blade worn away, that had a tapered slim blade and gave a razor edge with a wipe over a worn oily stone.

Frankly, I think most of the blades out there are overbuilt and overly stain resistant. Tactical folders and survival knives have their place, but few people need such robustness.
The steels that we believe are now being overused, suite the product we ask for at the price we are prepared to pay. But are we demanding the right type of blades? Do we want them to cut or pry.

The manufacturers will follow the fashion, and will eventually bring another great steel to hold our attention. However, the steels used are already pretty exotic/expensive and only a few steel mills will produce the stuff in the small quantities needed for the cutlery business. A new steel costs the earth to design unless another industry takes it up.

Progress - I love it, even when its just for the sake of it.
 
Ken (& others)

This is a peeve of mine.

Buy handmade knives with the materials you want (I do, with the exception of the BM705 I just got). I agree with most of what you said which is why I like A2, 52100, D2 and other low alloy tool steels. BUT!, if you take some knife that is so alloyed to resist rust and wear and....................... then it's going to be pretty fragile.

Soon enough this stupid material fetish is going to be over and people will say "you know that thin bladed, thin edged, carbon steel knife I have cuts like hell and is easy to resharpen. Why aren't all my knives made like that??" Pay attention to edge geometry and grind. Look at the new TK. Knives made from 440A outcut knives from BG42, ATS, D2.......... Yes, the grind.

-Bart
 
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