Why do we put up with it?

Bart
You are right, I love to work with 52100 and even 5160. But, most of my customers are hunters and there hell on CS blades. I do a lot of D2 because of the cromium content and its inherant toughness. However one of my new projects is a steel that has only half the cromium of ATS-34 and is 6-8 times tougher and wear resistant than D2, but it still rusts, however it cuts like 52100.
As you said the most important thing still is edge geometry.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
Ken ,
I'm right in the middle of these same disputes with Kershaw and they have some pretty good reasons for doing what they do . first off you can never make everyone happy as no two people agree on the same things .Most people want an affordable knife to do this companies need to fine blank there blades to help keep the cost down.Well guess what theres not a lot of choices for blade steel when doing this because you cannot fine blank 440-C, BG-42 etc ... as they will destroy the tooling . you can however fine blank 440-A,440-B,12C27, AUS-6
In order to utilize the highbred steels you must either laser cut or hydro saber ,all at quite an expense plus after laser cutting the outside of the knife needs to be trimmed to remove scale and irregularities due to the laser .This costs time and money also.
Some people want the super steels 440-V,420-V,BG-42
These steels have enormous wear resistance they wear out bits ,stones and tooling extremely fast which again adds cost as well asthe fact that these super steels usually cost 2-3X the price of ATS-34 and as much as 5X the cost of 440-A,
Companies have to purchase specialty stones to grind these alloys and they cost extra too, these steels also don't polish well with a scotch brite wheel and as a result take a second grinding opperation to smooth any irregularities in the grind befor polishing .You guessed it added cost .

Some people want nice thin edges because all of us know thin edges cut better .The only trouble is when some GI Joe wannabe decides to use it for as pry bar and then complain because it broke,Claiming warranty and wanting a free knife.
So from several generations of this, companies leave there edges a little thicker to help offset this problem.
Super steels , I personaly love them and mostly because I have a Burr KIng grinder and can sharpen them in a couple secconds when they go dull . This is not the case with the average knife consumer. We all want a knife that stays sharp the only down fall to this is that they all get dull sooner or later unless there Ginsu's
smile.gif
. and when they do ,does the average knife consumer know how to sharpen it ? No. maybe you guys do cause we just happen to live for this ****.But not the average consumer.
So the challenge to knife companies is to develop knives that will appeal to the masses ,as affordable as possable using the best materials available within a given price range and as accurately as possable for consistency and precision.
I hope I've helped.

Ps.440-C blows ats-34 out of the water in corrosion resistance ,impact resistance ,toughness and in my opinion holds an edge just as long. and Ive used them both for years until I stopped using ats-34 ,3 years ago due to it's inferiority to 440-C in every aspect eccept edge holding .
Aloha!!! Ken Onion
 
running dog,
boker use 440C not 440A on most of their blades, and 4034 which is 420.
at least here in europe

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Ray
MesserForum.net
 
Lets be thankful that the large manufacturers are relatively inflexable when it comes to steels. (They are producing great products and choise.)
This gives the custom maker a niche market to target. Once anyone becomes interested in blades, its not long before they are forced to go custom. The education process does take some time to aquire and a half dozen factory examples before they take the plunge. The choise has never been better. Its the custom boys that innovate. The cost of a plane jane by a custom maker is not that high, unless he has a big name.

I was at a Stalking barbeque and at a stall a gentleman bulked at the price of a hand made knife by Harry Boden on offer. £120 - $180 for a nice skinner. I couldn't help it, I just had to point out that the knife was good value when compared to cost of filling his Range Rover: over £50 -$75 a go.

And YES, there is room for an idiot proof knife sharpener, at a sensible cost, that does a proper job. And NO, it hasn't been made yet.
 
What about X15 ? Boker uses it and they say that it's far more corrosion ressistant compared to ATS-34 and 440 steels.
 
>>d2 isn't stainless<<

No, but it's *nearly* so. More importantly, it fully meets your criteria of:

>> don't need a knife that will NEVER rust, I need one that I can sharpen, and I mean REALLY sharpen in a few licks on a decent stone. I need a knife that will not corrode as long as I wipe it down every day and apply a thin film of oil every week or so.<<

D2 seems pretty perfect for your needs.
 
I gotta agree with Ken about 440C...dont use it any more but when I did I could NEVER tell any difference between it and ats in performance.....D2 may say high chromium content....but it RUSTS EASILY....like many of Cliffs posts.....its not what it says on paper that counts.....its real life!! Its a great steel for arizonia...but not Hawaii.. believe me.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Stainless means that the steel stains (rust in the steel business) less than non stainless steel. ANY stainless will rust. Some of the stainless steels developed in the last 10 or so years are a good compromise between rust/corrosion resistance and the hardning qualities of other steel grades. I am not a metalurgist nor do I work in the steel industry. I only know that Stainless WILL rust from personal experience with many of the 300 series stainless and Monel metals used where corrosion/rusting is a severe problem around certain chemicals--they get eaten up like the fenders on cars where salt is used on highways except 100 times faster. If rusty metal particles, rusty steel wool, high iron content water, etc comes in contact with stainless steel and is not throughly removed or the steel is not completely protected at all times from these things, stainless steel WILL RUST--STAIN. No rust at all = non iron content compounds. As far as which stainless knife steel is best, well ????. Plese keep these things in mind before knocking all stainless steels.
I hope my comments help someone.
 
About D2. If you need a corrosion resistant steel D2 is great. Like many other qualities, this depends on the heat treat. Bob Dozier's D2 is at least as stain resistant as BMs an other factories' ATS, I'll bet you on it. I guess part of that is the surface finish too, though Bob's isn't a high polish.

-Bart
 
D2 is a great steel ,I just think a pocket knife cannot utilize D2's best characteristics It is a great steel for big choppers due to it's toughness and wear resistance .I guarantee a knife company that decides to use D2 in pocketknives will get alot returned due to rust. I don't want a pocketknife that I gotta worry about rust I did that when I was a kid .pain in the ass to maintain plus who wants to mess up there hundred dollar knife with rust I'd much rather sharpen more often if I had to choose between the two.Plus D2 don't sharpen all that well .It takes a ****ty edge but holds it well.

Just one guys opinion
Aloha!!! Ken Onion
 
Hey guys and gals, I am not hearing very much about AUS8A steel. Cold Steel uses it, as does spyderco. How does it compare with other steels on the market?
 
AUS8 isn't terrible...I guess it's closest relative in terms of performance is 440C except it's a little worse in most areas. Edgeholding is mediocre, toughness and stain resistance are good. AUS8 is better than most flavors of 440A or AUS6.

ATS34/154CM, 440C and AUS8 are all good steels for "pure fighters", blades that you carry daily for defense and you don't want to have to worry much about rust, etc. That's REKAT's main market, and they've done well with ATS34 and since 154CM is pretty much "the same thing but a hair better", it'll work too.

REKAT is also about to release a "modified D2 with better rust resistance"...the idea is promising, we'll see how it pans out.

Current D2 has a rep for being "hard to sharpen" sometimes...although not too many people make that complaint about Bob Dozier's D2s. Another possible "heat treat difference", or Bob's stuff is being bought by people experienced in sharpening...?

Jim
 
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