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Why does everyone hate coldsteel?
- Thread starter RedEdge77
- Start date
You guys are naive and ignorant of knife history to criticize Cold Steel for marketing hype, copying designs and contracting out their manufacturing.
Building knives on others current and past designs, having the knives made by contract firms and then building a sales network on hype is as old as the modern cutlery business...~200 years. Gerber contracted knives from Japan. Spyderco didn't build their own knives for years and their sales are built on as much hype as coldsteel albeit a different kind of hype. Buck had their small pocket knives made out of house which are just copies of classic designs. Case has Queen make some of their high end models. AlMar has never made their own knives. Everyone copies Spyderco's holes, the lockback, the liner lock and the ball detent (invented in modern times by Walker.) Gee whiz, in the past knife manufacturers copied production methods, stole designers and cutlers, and even copied marketing methods and materials.
Where does copying begin and building on the work of others end?...with a patent. Companies and designers with real innovations get patents and corner the market for a few years...this too is as old as the cutlery business. In the end, given the number of knives and types in the world, everyone copies someone when they start (e.g. Randall and Scagel) and even later (look how many reputable companies sell a Buck 110 clone?)
Lynn Thompson honors patents and respects superior design. He paid Spyderco for the clip-it design for years and sold their sharpmaker as his only sharpening system. He also sells reasonably priced versions of classic designs for the knifeknut on a budget.
Building knives on others current and past designs, having the knives made by contract firms and then building a sales network on hype is as old as the modern cutlery business...~200 years. Gerber contracted knives from Japan. Spyderco didn't build their own knives for years and their sales are built on as much hype as coldsteel albeit a different kind of hype. Buck had their small pocket knives made out of house which are just copies of classic designs. Case has Queen make some of their high end models. AlMar has never made their own knives. Everyone copies Spyderco's holes, the lockback, the liner lock and the ball detent (invented in modern times by Walker.) Gee whiz, in the past knife manufacturers copied production methods, stole designers and cutlers, and even copied marketing methods and materials.
Where does copying begin and building on the work of others end?...with a patent. Companies and designers with real innovations get patents and corner the market for a few years...this too is as old as the cutlery business. In the end, given the number of knives and types in the world, everyone copies someone when they start (e.g. Randall and Scagel) and even later (look how many reputable companies sell a Buck 110 clone?)
Lynn Thompson honors patents and respects superior design. He paid Spyderco for the clip-it design for years and sold their sharpmaker as his only sharpening system. He also sells reasonably priced versions of classic designs for the knifeknut on a budget.
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brownshoe said:
Lynn Thompson has made it quite clear that making a buck is the only thing he really cares about. In my opinion, he is an ass. I could go over once again his distinct lack of ethics, but I have gone through that enough times.
As far as Cold Steel knives are concerned, there are some that I like a lot, some that I think are okay, and many that I don't like at all. Too bad their new line of high end folders is so pricey. They look pretty good.
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2003
- Messages
- 209
stjames said:
My favourite part:
"To protect the fingers from the unintentional closure of the blade, the Black Sable has been fitted with Cold Steels® state of the art rocker lock. A highly refined locking mechanism, perfected by Cold Steel® over the last eighteen years, that relies on extra strong springs, super close tolerances and other secret refinements to make it equal, if not superior, in strength, to any other lock on the market."
Can't say I much care for "secret refinements" in a lock. If it's stopping the blade from cutting off my fingers, I want to know exactly how it works and what's doing the stopping.
Chris
Thanks Woody. Actually they Copied R.W.Loveless on that one. One of my old buddies, Kit, HJ Carson makes quite a nice living, desighning for companies. If the companies ripped him off instead, he would be in the same boat as me. However Columbia River is a Repuatable companie. Cold Steel doesnt have that rep. M. Lovett By the way I "HAVE R.W. LOVELESS PERMISSION". I dont rip off. taKe a look at http://home.earthlink.net/~michaellovett/ the knife c.s. ripped me on was the recon tanto. Linn Tompson did that one himself.woodybushman said:looks like CS also copied this knife by M.Lovett :
CS:
while i agree that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, i can understand why Custom Knife makers like M. Lovett are royally pissed off.....
:grumpy:
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- May 21, 2000
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- 6,223
Some Cold Steel products are actually decent. I have an XL Voyager that I really like. I also own several other CS knives and 3 sjamboks.
That said, some of the stuff they sell is flea market grade junk. I don't really care for CS's advertising or Lynn Thompson. The "Proof" video is fun to watch, but it is misleading.
My main problem with CS is that they have copied the designs of others and not given them credit.
That said, some of the stuff they sell is flea market grade junk. I don't really care for CS's advertising or Lynn Thompson. The "Proof" video is fun to watch, but it is misleading.
My main problem with CS is that they have copied the designs of others and not given them credit.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2005
- Messages
- 97
M Lovett, i saw that Recon tanto you made.... 
WOW!! very nice...
any way to your name back on it and not CS?
WOW!! very nice...any way to your name back on it and not CS?
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- Mar 26, 2004
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no honor, no integrity, no respect...
silenthunterstudios
Slipjoint Addict
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Whats the law of design on a knife? A large portion of the tactical productions out there all resemble the others to some degree. Some custom makers are not given their dues by production companies that make knives that look almost exactly like the customs. Whats the rule with artistic license?
Yea, lots of money time, court cost att. fee's, Years of one's life, and luck. At Least the Pic, is dated, and owned by one Andy Dennie of Killeen Tx. Take that Cold Steel M. Lovettwoodybushman said:M Lovett, i saw that Recon tanto you made....
any way to your name back on it and not CS?
the Law governing the theft of desighn of knives is the same as any other product. That's not the point. sure we all make similar knives, and we all get ideas from one another. The problem enters the pic, when some brazen S.O.B., Claims that it is the latest, Greatest, thing since sliced bread, and totally his brain child. There are a lot of un heraled,makers out there. How about L.C.Finger who desighned the Schrade Little Finger and made it for 20 years as a custom before Schrade, They didn't rip L.C. off, But I bet you Have herd of the little finger. How about L.c. Finger. Or Harrvy McBurnette, Dick Durogh, and Mr Fuller, Who came out with the first working Lock desighn foward of the but (Fuller was one handed. Hence the desighn. And ripped off by both Kershaw and A. Mar. Both who were forced to pay restitution And How about those guys that had a trip to Desert Storm, and make Simple combat knives at exorbant prices claiming to now know what is needed, Everyone is buying into it. think they might have seen a few cord wrapped Dawsons, And Lovetts over there. Weve only got about a 20 year head start on these guy's, But they are the originators, Yea, Right!. Why are they so popular. Advertising Dollars and a line of crap that sound like the truth. M.Lovettsilenthunterstudios said:
The comments are flying in all directions, so I guess there are a few things I have to say:
The lockback design on the Voyager series actually is pretty good. They tend to give themselves a little more credit than I would, but not all lockbacks are created equal and theirs sure are good.
They say their stainless models are 57rc and it shows. The Voyagers are nice knives, but definitely fall behind in edge retention compared to other AUS8 blades, such as from Spyderco.
They use AUS8 for many knives, which is only barely in the world of "good" steel. It's not terrible, but given their claims and language they should have something better than just OK. Spyderco has switched to much better steels for most of their models since 1998 or so. Cold Steel once tried some AUS10 knives, had positive results, and for some reason went back to AUS8.
Carbon V has only ever had good reviews, even from people I know that don't normally care for Cold Steel. On the other hand, I tried one of their fixed blades made from "420 sub zero quench," which, as expected, is nearly useless junk.
There is nothing wrong with designing a knife and having a competent manufacturer make it for you. Implying that your product is better than any other becomes questionable, but design and choices in manufacturing make a difference too so I would pass on that issue.
Copying accusations are sometimes way overstated. A lot of Spyderco fans are nuts about this, and a single similar feature sets them off. Some Cold Steel designs are obvious, others only share a couple things with other brands. Often the knife fans claim was copied is not nearly as original as they think. And I will say this one specific thing: Spyderco may have invented the round opening hole, but for cripes sake it's just a hole and they invented it 20 years ago. A differently shaped opener hole is not some rude crime so that alone is a weak argument.
It is just plain stupid to excuse bad behavior by saying that's the way the industry works. It's not entirely like that and Cold Steel is by far one of the worst when it comes to hype. If it is so, please present arguments against the supposed offenders to make their behavior known as well.
Cold Steel does make some good stuff, some very good stuff, and some junk. I think most hatred for them comes from a mismatch of words vs. products. Years ago they published an article about, among other things, how terrible it was that other manufacturers used something as crummy as 420J2. Then later, perhaps giving in to the profit bug, they use their 420 sub-zero stuff for some fixed blades and many of their small keychain knives. I think the keychain knives in 420 may have predated the article.
The lockback design on the Voyager series actually is pretty good. They tend to give themselves a little more credit than I would, but not all lockbacks are created equal and theirs sure are good.
They say their stainless models are 57rc and it shows. The Voyagers are nice knives, but definitely fall behind in edge retention compared to other AUS8 blades, such as from Spyderco.
They use AUS8 for many knives, which is only barely in the world of "good" steel. It's not terrible, but given their claims and language they should have something better than just OK. Spyderco has switched to much better steels for most of their models since 1998 or so. Cold Steel once tried some AUS10 knives, had positive results, and for some reason went back to AUS8.
Carbon V has only ever had good reviews, even from people I know that don't normally care for Cold Steel. On the other hand, I tried one of their fixed blades made from "420 sub zero quench," which, as expected, is nearly useless junk.
There is nothing wrong with designing a knife and having a competent manufacturer make it for you. Implying that your product is better than any other becomes questionable, but design and choices in manufacturing make a difference too so I would pass on that issue.
Copying accusations are sometimes way overstated. A lot of Spyderco fans are nuts about this, and a single similar feature sets them off. Some Cold Steel designs are obvious, others only share a couple things with other brands. Often the knife fans claim was copied is not nearly as original as they think. And I will say this one specific thing: Spyderco may have invented the round opening hole, but for cripes sake it's just a hole and they invented it 20 years ago. A differently shaped opener hole is not some rude crime so that alone is a weak argument.
It is just plain stupid to excuse bad behavior by saying that's the way the industry works. It's not entirely like that and Cold Steel is by far one of the worst when it comes to hype. If it is so, please present arguments against the supposed offenders to make their behavior known as well.
Cold Steel does make some good stuff, some very good stuff, and some junk. I think most hatred for them comes from a mismatch of words vs. products. Years ago they published an article about, among other things, how terrible it was that other manufacturers used something as crummy as 420J2. Then later, perhaps giving in to the profit bug, they use their 420 sub-zero stuff for some fixed blades and many of their small keychain knives. I think the keychain knives in 420 may have predated the article.
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Well gotta throw my 2 sense in, Cold Steel in my opinion offers some of the best user knives for the money, and they stand by their products! I've had two incidents where I've sent a knife back for warranty work, both times received a new knife no ?'s asked no reciept of purchase, anything 
BTW - never had a Cold Steel that had blade wobble like say a Spyderco
no reciept of purchase, anything BTW - never had a Cold Steel that had blade wobble like say a Spyderco
Slaytanic said:BTW - never had a Cold Steel that had blade wobble like say a Spyderco
I haven't either, but I have had many that are a little too tight and don't snap closed well or open easily. If it's a pressed rivet, a tight one can be fixed with use and a loose one can be fixed with a vice.
I do find that the Voyagers are more consistent with the position of the blade. Spyderco FRN models have a lot of variety in that area. I also like the rounded handle shape of the Voyagers. Too bad they don't put as much into choosing the steel as they do into grinding it into shape.
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I guess seriously speaking I don't hate Cold Steal, but I certainly dislike them a great deal and won't buy their products.
I also don't think it's ok to turn a blind eye to some of Cold Steel's business practices.
It's easy to say things like "that's how the world works!" and "that's the knife business!"
But I do not agree with design theft, or intellectual theft of any kind, and I won't sit around and sigh and ho and hum and then buy from a company that does agree with those practices.
During my time here I've come to see that by large the knife community is based around trust, integrity, and honor. None of which Cold Steel has.
It's easy to give other examples and say "that's how things work!" However, I can think of several companies that consider their reputation and their business practices. And these companies make it clear it's about more than making a quick buck.
At the end of the day, those companies get my business.
-Bryan
I also don't think it's ok to turn a blind eye to some of Cold Steel's business practices.
It's easy to say things like "that's how the world works!" and "that's the knife business!"
But I do not agree with design theft, or intellectual theft of any kind, and I won't sit around and sigh and ho and hum and then buy from a company that does agree with those practices.
During my time here I've come to see that by large the knife community is based around trust, integrity, and honor. None of which Cold Steel has.
It's easy to give other examples and say "that's how things work!" However, I can think of several companies that consider their reputation and their business practices. And these companies make it clear it's about more than making a quick buck.
At the end of the day, those companies get my business.
-Bryan