Why does everyone want such "tough" folders?

Not everything can be cut with a simple slice. You sometimes need to stab, slash or twist something with your pocket knife. I slid my knife under some nylon strapping last Friday. I twisted it blade up and levered the knife to cut the tough material. My BM710 can handle it and I wouldn't want a knife that couldn't

I have a strong grip and I have broken many knives. I broke a leatherman trying to cut a bed spring, I snapped the tip off my Endura cutting some canvas, I recently broke a Byrd credit card knife. I don't miss use my knives, but since I always have a knife it's often the only tool available, and I'll use it to get a variety of jobs done.

Durability Is one of most important qualities for a knife to have. I've had a knife close on my hand and it great disappointment.
 
Why do we want tough folders?


Everyone wants a tough knife because we expect quality. If I'm gonna pay money for a knife, it better be worth it's price, in terms of toughness. Do you want to pay $50 for a knife with a lock that barely functions properly? Just like building skyscrapers and such, engineers always overbuild it by 50% just in case of a super rare event. As with knives, they overbuild it for the rare event of the blade closing on your fingers. Now, I know this hasn't happened to me, but it has for a lot of people. I, myself, like the idea of using my knife without the worry of the lock failing. I'd rather be safe than have a rare event where the lock fails and I'm missing a finger.

My friend got a CRKT Special Forces because he's currently in Iraq. Though he has a KaBar, he uses his CRKT more than his KaBar for work because his KaBar is strictly for self defense/offense, and he wants it to be in perfect condition for when the time comes. Some may ask why he doesn't carry two fixed knives. Well he told me that it'd be a damn hassle to carry two fixed knives, when you can carry a fixed knife and a small folder that barely takes up space, and weighs seemingly nothing.

As the saying goes: "To each his own." We all have different opinions and needs. Some people, like myself, prefer folders in the place of fixed knives. It may be because of legality, size, compactness, or other reasons where a fixed blade just won't do.
 
I use my knives for their intended purposes; cutting. Thinner knives cut better, and that is all I am concerned with. If I actually needed to pry something regularly, I would simply carry a mini pry bar. I beleive in using the right tool for the job, and a knife just isn't for prying. For those of you who do pry with your knives, have you ever broken one of your knives while prying?
 
I have broken folding knife blades. I have also had several "locking" blades fold and cut me. Usually when I am doing any piercing or any thing that I think might put stress on the lock, I try to hold the knife so that if it does not hold, it will not cut my fingers. I had a buck cross lock that would fold by just light pressure while holding it with only two fingers and applying "magical pixie dust" light pressure. I have eaten noodles that were stronger than that damn knife. My brother had to have surgery on his right thumb from the same model. He had an emergency where he had to cut the side walls on a tire.....oops, lets just switch hands, then go to the emergency room and get that tendon stitched back together and wear a cast for a super long time. I agree that knives make very expensive, ineffective pry bars, or other types of tools, but some times it is all you have.

I like to have strong knives that don't want to eat my fingers like snapping ravenous alligators. or that I can force a car lock with, or cut through a car door (my friend has had to do both up in the mountains in sub zero storm weather....he could have just broken the window, and then hoped he would not have frozen on the several hour drive off the mountain).
 
This is an interesting thread.

We know this is a hobby as well as a search for good working tools. So "want" can have as much to do with choice as "need". I don't know if it's "want" or "need' that drives some people here to insult other people or their choices.

We are also choosing to speak our own separate languages. Descriptions show a disparity among what constitutes a tough folder and what the cost would be. Not every "tough" folder is massive and clumsy or is intended for abusive service on a regular basis. Nor does it need to cost hundreds of dollars. So many criticisms are strawman arguments.

Why not relax with the topic and enjoy the discussion instead of reveling in dissension?
 
The first post was focused on thick blades and prying, it's strange how the thread is drifting to lock discussion. I don't know if anyone pries against the edge of a knife, which would stress the lock. To me, that would mean you're either cutting through what you're prying, or breaking out your edge. Prying on the flats won't stress the lock, but is where thicker blades work better. And locks that don't fail from light pressure aren't 'tough', merely functional. Meeting a minimum performance expectation and being tough are different things, imo.
 
it's strange how the thread is drifting to lock discussion. I don't know if anyone pries against the edge of a knife, which would stress the lock. To me, that would mean you're either cutting through what you're prying, or breaking out your edge.
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Good point. I think what the lock has to do with it is, if people are twisting the knife once it's jammed in something. That would put stress on a lock it's hard to design for.

Using a knife to cut doesn't require a lock at all. But cold, hungry, and tired with a tough folder will lead to abuse. Planning ahead and carrying a better tool kit, and an Opinel and a SAK will do fine -- backing up a fixed blade, hatchet, and saw.
 
Marketing for retards? Hmm, have you looked on the freeways lately and estimated the need for large 6 passenger all wheel drive vehicles in a area with no significant snowfall or unpaved roads? On 20" rims with 30 profile street racing tires?

Well, by golly, we're Americans, and we buy what we please, even when it may be obvious to everyone we have no use for the actual capababilities of the tool. But sometimes, maybe we do, too. I walked half a mile in freezing rain to buy a prybar at Wally world when I had a new SnG in my pocket. I got in my Cherokee, but it would have been a lot simpler and safer to just whip out the SnG and pry open the tailgate like I did. Sure, I could have planned ahead and carried a B&E ice kit into work for later use - and I did the next few days - but the SnG could do it, by all accounts, and had I been coming in from deer hunting, I may have had no other choice. A thin bladed knife would not do the job, flexing at best, and carrying a prybar around takes a lot of justification.

A stout folder is portable, has few lock issues in the upper price ranges, and can still cut. Scapel-like precision is really overdone for the average user. Does it make that much of a difference to be able to cut with scissor-like accuracy when you're just breaking down antifreeze cases or opening pallet wrap and banding? It's really not using the best tool for the job - and not always one for a light, thin blade.

Big folders have been around for centuries - the subject is being treated myopically here. Many slipjoint makers offered 4" and larger hunter patterns, and still do, sometimes paired with a saw blade. Upgrading the materials and construction, and remarketing them for more tactical purposes, it's still the same, a large folding blade that some people need to interact with their environment in their circumstances. Big folders do more than little pen knives in the larger context of use (even if 1/4" blades really don't exist,) and granpa new that when he bought his clasp knife for rough use on the farm.

And it stood in well on the battlefield, too - just search what the Civil War vets really used for their personal kit.

If some don't see the need for a large folder, I can only assume they have arranged their life exceedingly well, and live with what they think is necessary. Others will carry a large folder as their answer for their needs - and we sure aren't starting threads on little bitty flimsy metro knives just to knock them. They're nice, too, on a rainy Sunday watching the game, but I don't take them to work or expect much from them.
 
Well, my true edc is the LM Wave, I rotate the folding knives for pure cutting. The main reason I don't switch to a Charge with S30V or 154CM is I like to have the crappy 420 blade for scraping, something a knife really isn't suitable for. Too bad the Swisstool with chisel doesn't have a couple other tools on it that I like. My view is that there are other pocket friendly tools out there today to do the non-knife things. I did a lot of prying with a Vic Tinker, but never had to worry about breaking the blade. I'd see more use for thick folders if there weren't multi-tools & SAKs, if Peter Atwood didn't have his prybabies & more, or if countycomm didn't have widgy bars, pocket pry bars, or EOD breacher bars.

I also don't equate blade length to toughness, which has been brought up a couple times. My mind always drifts to things like fillet knives, or the .089" thick, 3.97" long BM Snipe folder.
 
michaelmcgo said:
Why does everyone want such "tough" folders?
It seems 1 in 3 threads lately have been asking what production folders are the strongest? People say they want a folder that can handle anything and everything. I do not understand why you want a knife so thick that it diminishes it's cutting ability, because you may have to pry with it someday. How many people have broken a normal thickness knife? I understand that a knife is designed for cutting (especially a folder), and therefore I buy a knife that is good for cutting. I own several fixed blades that are super thick and very tough, I may pry with one of those. My toolbox is chuck full of things good for prying, I will never use my razor blades for that, because they were not designed for that. Maybe I don't live a rough enough lifestyle, but I will never own a 1/4" thick bladed folder!
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hardheart said:
The first post was focused on thick blades and prying, it's strange how the thread is drifting to lock discussion. I don't know if anyone pries against the edge of a knife, which would stress the lock. To me, that would mean you're either cutting through what you're prying, or breaking out your edge. Prying on the flats won't stress the lock, but is where thicker blades work better. And locks that don't fail from light pressure aren't 'tough', merely functional. Meeting a minimum performance expectation and being tough are different things, imo.
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The first post was also directed at several threads asking what was "the toughest" knife. So that the first and most important characteristic of the knife was to be its toughness.

Nobody wants a knife that falls apart. If we did, we wouldn't be posting here. But there have been several recent threads about 1/4" thick blades, continuous extreme hard use blades, toughest blades, exotic tool steel blades, etc. A lot of them, once they get into the thread, reveal that their use doesn't justify toughness as their primary need in a blade. IMO, a lot of them reveal that what they really need is a well built knife that keeps a decent edge for a fair amount of time. This is what most of us pretty much want.

I don't have a problem if someone actually has a need to carry a portable prybar. But I think that some folks overly fixate on "tough knife" instead of understanding their needs and looking for a blade that fulfills them. (For that matter, I don't really have a problem if they just "want" to carry a prybar either. )
 
Personally, I'd rather be over-prepared than the converse. Looking at my Spyderco Military and Opinel #10, the Opinel is more of a pure cutter, while the Spyderco can handle a wider variety of harder use cutting. Less chance of the blade or tip breaking in a tough cut, less chance of my hand slipping onto the blade or the pivot failing, tougher steel, etc. Do I need a 4mm thick blade to slice bread, open envelopes or whittle a spoon? Not at all. But give that 4mm blade a thin edge and a good grind and it will still cut well, while remaining in one piece during rough use my knives see time to time.

I try to carry the things I'll get the most utility out of. For me, that means a big folder and a small multitool / SAK of some sort. The multitool will get me out of small prying jobs, do rough scraping, be used as a screwdriver etc. It's also nice to have a small blade for smaller tasks. But for my folder, I like knowing that I can do sorts of things a lesser folder wouldn't stand up to. I've broken or bent blades on SAKS and Opinels doing things my Military wouldn't sneeze at, and have had times where what needed to be cut, I would not want to attempt cutting with a slipjoint. For 99% of the time my favorite SAK will do the job, but it sucks being stuck when you encounter that 1%.
 
After growing up with only slipjoint knives on the market youd realise why im overcautious with lock strength on todays folders.

Especially when its all about the self defence.
 
Very interesting thread & I notice some people are getting awefully emotional about it to have to resort to name calling & such.

Personally, I use both. When I'm at work (LE), I usually carry one of my Buck/Striders (Either the 881 or 882). Before I got the 881 (Mini PE tanto), I thought a thick knife could do it all, but that thing's too thick. Prior to getting the aforementioned knives, I carried an Emerson CQC7 for 7 yrs or so. I carry those because I may need to just cut open something or maybe somebody. I'm not condoning stabbing people, but if someone went for my gun, I'm either going to pull my BUG or knife & discourage them (Been there, done that, & it was NOT fun-& it was with the Emerson). So, I'm going to want a knife that's not going to break or falter.

Off duty, I like carrying different knives. Right now a Lone Wolf Harsey T-1 or an old Spyderco Delica 2 or 3 (I don't know which it is). They're for cutting things & I don't figure on having to "gut" someone with it. I do carry a neck knife, though.

Point is, different flavors. Realistically, I think many people need or want a thicker blade, not for what they need to do, but for what they MAY have to do. Although I'm sure some are carrying it for machismo reasons. Of course, one can get away with using a thinner blade for the above mentioned uses.

Nothing's written in stone. I used to wonder why people would want a Strider, but I do understand why now (I just can't get myself to spend the money for one).

Great thread.
 
CL01,
Take a long look at the droppoint SnG and you'll see a hunter utility pattern - not some wedgy extreme SD piece with waves, serrations, flippers, or AO. Just a simple design enhanced to handle hard use by people who need it to do a lot of different things. Even the grip is optimized for wearing gloves - something lots of pro's do, whether cutting zip-ties or opening cement bags.

I find it interesting how many lump all large knives together (and negatively, too) when the different blade shapes, handle ergos, and finishes make them uniquely different - an Emerson CQC7, SnG, or Case melon tester are certainly not developed to approach the same cutting tasks at all.

It's like all those threads on saber vs. flatground vs hollowground, tanto vs. droppoint vs spearpoint, etc etc were completely ignored - and from what I've been seeing, that's seems to be common in a lot of discussions of knives over the years.
 
My EDCs are Sebenzas in jeans or my Mnandi in dress slacks, however, around the house I carry a BM 420 or 720. I consider these as heavy duty folders and subject them to tasks I wouldn't dream of using a Sebenza for such as reaming PVC pipe cutting heavy tubing, scraping paint, stipping wire, etc. etc. Not because I think a Sebenza won't stand up to the job at hand but because I don't want to damage them.
 
I think a lot of this relates to where most of us come from in our knife owning history. Knarfeng said most turn out to be young people.

Think of when you were young into your knife owning. Most likely you had a cheap knife that could be given to a kid and not missed if broken or lost. And you went out and cut yourself with it, right (either by it closing on your fingers or it slipped out of your grip)? So then you see this thick, loud locking knife that feels like it will never cut you no matter what you do to it. It FILLS your hand, and Damn is it impressive. You take it out with you and put it through the paces- dig holes, chop into some wood, maybe throw it into a tree a few times ("hey this Tanto tip is awesome- it is so thick thowing it didn't even bend it"). Therefore this knife is the best in the world and if anybody else wants the best knife in the world I'll tell them to get this. Maybe later as you learn how to sharpen better you find that you get a better cutting edge if maybe it was thinner a bit farther back. Then you see this nice little folder that would fit better in your pocket at the movies and such. So you get it and hey- at the restaurant one night the waitress forgets your steak knife- instead of waiting you just pull out your new knife and WOW does it ever cut the steak well!! After a while the thick knife is at home more and more and the thin one never leaves your side. Then you start to get Opinels and maybe a Douk Douk and a custom distally tapered camp knife from a custom maker. And you start to ask on the forums "Why the hell would anybody buy one of those thick ass prybar like things?"

Now maybe you get on or off of that trip in real life and maybe you are on one of those points right now I bet one or more of them will happen in some way. Note I have nobody specific in mind and no unnamed knives in mind here- not a commentary on that end of things. And by the way I like both thick and thin knives for different applications.
 
Now here's a thought!:jerkit:

It's your money! :cool: If you want a single blade, 2 inch slipjoint, buy it. :)

Or if you want the biggest, baddest, toughest, sharpest, longest folder ever made, then buy it! :thumbup:

It's your money, spend it on whatever YOU like, and to heck with whatever anyone else thinks.
 
Now maybe you get on or off of that trip in real life and maybe you are on one of those points right now I bet one or more of them will happen in some way. Note I have nobody specific in mind and no unnamed knives in mind here- not a commentary on that end of things.
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That's good, because I really am getting tired of hearing people analyze other people whom they never met, don't know, haven't asked, just flight-of-fancy pictured doing something, anything, worth making up stories about.

You're a this! Well you're a that! and you probably would, too! The Dr. Phil generation.
 
hardheart said:
Yes, jack of all trades, master of none. I just don't think that is a great thing.
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Well, for the sake of sticking up for those budding Macgyvers of knives out there, the full phrase, which most people don't know, is "jack of all trades, master of none, BUT OFTTIMES BETTER THAN MASTER OF ONE." Which about sums up my experience. I have a LM Wave that I try to carry with me, but it's mighty awkward (heavy, thick), especially as I try to dress non-tactically, so I usually end up with it in my bag. So that's where my 710 comes in. I want a few smaller, more slicer oriented knives so I can dedicate one folder to hard, one to easy, but I am trying not to blow out my bank account. Anyway, the other thing is just the American way of thinking: Excess over targeted needs. Why did the Smartfortwo car originate in Europe, while the Excursion came from the US? Consumers here like big and excessive. There's a reason Opinels are French, and Striders are American (overgeneralized, yes, but I'm trying to make a point :p)
 
Ooo, yes, but don't forget Extrema Ratio. I don't mind your analogy - Americans do like it big and noticeable - but large knives were and still are common in a lot of areas in the world where working with them is part of the normal day.

South American machete, anyone? Large knives do large jobs. The fictionalized account of a young man growing in his use and type of knives he carries has another point - as we mature, we choose different tools to do work, due to experience and discernment.

Appreciation of construction and quality increases, application is refined, and necessity, that mother of all inventions, oftentimes lessens as the available tool base grows and the number of users we assign to them increases in the organization.

In my case, I went from small slipjoints to medium tactical folders to large hard use folders in utility patterns. I don't think I've topped out carrying a Ti framelock, it's just the tool I now use to do the tasks I think I need - with that extra heft to handle the rarer jobs that still come up.

I've never thought I was carrying a big, heavy folder - of course, some think a SAK Classic is a "killer" knife - and as I learn more about their use, I just can't seem to find smaller knives as functional tools. It's probably because my tasks haven't miniaturized to the point just needing a nail cleaner, or pocket jewelry to impress the guy in the next cubicle.

One thing is sure, tho, I do use them - they grow more valuable to me when I see wear and tear on them. Pretty has it's place, but resharpened and pocket worn is real.
 
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