Why does my Damascus delaminate?

peter nap

peter nap

Joined
Nov 27, 1999
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For a long time now I've been trying to make good Damascus. Several months ago I got a blade to stay together and I thought I had it. Everything went OK until I heat treated. I noticed it coming apart at the layers after etching. I remade the same blade with some of Bruce Evans Damascus and gave it the same heat treat. The layers stayed put just as they should. I've tryed hotter and burned the steel up. I've tried colder and not gotten complete welds. I've flux with dry Borax. I've fluxed with ashes. I've fluxed with ashes and borax.

I just don't understand why I can't get one good piece. Any ideas please?
 
hi pete, im not much of a damascus maker...actually i just recently made my 1st piece...with lots of help from Indian George...one thing we learned was the proper forging temp... too cold- bad welds...too hot burn things up....we forge weld between 2100-2300..i think (is that right George?) im sure i will get some abuse from George if i got this wrong:p also be sure to clean up the steel really good between folding make sure all the scale is removed...im sure some of the real damascus makers will chime in... hope this helps some:)
 
Pete,

This advice was given to me by several very very respected damascus forgers. "You must believe that the material is going to weld."
 
Art is right. Also Ive found that if I do a little dance and raise my hands high 3 times while turning in a circle as the steel is coming up to heat, the welds are best.
 
Peter,What types of steel are you using in the mix.And are you using gas or coal to forge in?
There are allot of variables that can cause this.One is the Blessings you must recieve from the Damascus making gods..Some days everything goes great and then somedays nothing goes good at all..
email me and we will talk.
Bruce
 
Not a damascus maker, but a thing I know: not al steels go together.
Some won't weld well no matter what, others won't stand up to heat treat, others will give a crappy blade even if they stay together.
If two metals have very different reactions to heat they can shear a perfect weld open due to stresses caused by different expansion rates, for example.
This may happen when they cool after welding or during heat treat.
It may very well be your case.
If you tell us which steels are you using for your damascus, a real smith will be able to tell if you have such kind of problem.
 
Peter; Like Bruce E asked what are you using?? You need a clean hot fire and when you fold it the billet must be grounded cleaned. Just like Chisel said. Joe ( Chisel) I am getting in the Xmas spirit I not going to give anyone a hard time today.
 
OK seriously if you use 1084 and 15n20 or L6 you should have no trouble. I had your same problem before I bought a pyrometer and thermocouple for the forge. For propane: The forge will heat up to 2300 before the steel does so make sure you soak the steel and watch the color (lemon yellow)and see the flux flowing and sizzling. I think you have been removing it before all the layers were the same temp. Also you only have 5 or 6 seconds to hit it before it cools to below 2300. Use anhydrous borax.

Dont rule out doing the little dance.
 
What Bruce forgot to tell you was be sure to dance in a clockwise direction only unless you happen to be in Australia (grin).
 
Thanks everyone. Bruce E. I'm using a gas forge, and have tried a lot of steel mixes but they all have scrap 5160.

Bruce B. It just occured to me that I may not be hitting it fast enough. It takes me a few seconds to get it in position and get a good grip. These are almost always small blocks and I'm not sure now that I think of it, that they will hold yellow for 6 seconds after it hits the anvil.

How large of stack do you start with?
 
I recently did my first serious damascus billets. Three of them. Two were 1095/1018 billets, one was 1095/15n20. They were 1.5"x1.5"x6" for the 15n20, and the hi/lo were 2"x2"x8" approximately. Those were pretty heavy billets to throw around, but they held the heat for awhile. I had some trouble initially due to too little heat, and hitting too hard. I pushed up to TWO psi, and used the lighter hammer with a lot of taps, and now have three sound billets. It allowed me to correct the first two, and weld the third without a hitch. You do have to get it to the anvil fast for the smaller ones, though. Get your grip on it while it's in the forge, and let the tongs get hot, too. Sometimes they'll sink off some of the heat and get it under the eutectic point.
Hope this helps.
 
Hey Larry, you forgot to tell Pete not to hit it too hard! Remember Pete, once the entire billet is up to welding heat do the little dance, click yer heels together three times and then 'believe' that the weld will take and lay it on the anvil and gently 'set' the weld with a tap tap tap of the hammer. If you hit it too hard at welding heat all the steel that would otherwise weld will come squirting out of the joints. Ask me how I know.

So, gently set the weld by tap tap tapping down the center of the billet and then tap tap tapping down each side of the billet. Finally, and I know you want to because so do I, HIT THE SUCKER! Pound piss out of it! Then back to the forge for another welding heat and maybe more flux if yer a flux hog like me. From there beat the piss out of it on each heat. I take a minimum of three welding heats on each fold just to be sure. I'm thinking that might be yer problem old buddy. Try it and see if that helps.
 
Thanks again everyone. I have a whole set of new things to try now. I'll beat it yet (No pun intended):D

I have to confess something though now that Max has jogged my memory. Remember my entry into the ugly knife contest...well...many moons ago Max posted a picture on Neo Tribal, of a beautiful Bowie he forged. After looking at that I had to hammer one out. I wanted to do damascus but since mine kept coming apart (I've been trying a long time), I decided to try Birdseye Damascus. I drilled a bunch of divots in an old file and filled them with weld. (from an arc welder) and comminced to making the ultimate Bowie. Well the Bowie became a skinner and about that time I read Bruce Evans tutorial on vine filework. So I took my skinner/bowie and made it better. I wasn't quite satisfied with the look so a made a really neat snail on the thing. The finished knife is the ugly entry.

Max is responsible for the start of that thing and any praise I have gotten is due to his presence as a role model and should be shared.:D :D :D :eek:
 
I don't know...It looks like the way things are going Peter may have to sacrifice his first born calf for the next few years to get on the gods good side:D :D :D
Bruce
 
Touch the hot steel with a metal coat hanger when you think you are close to temp, it will start to stick a little when you are at welding heat.
 
happens when they drop some of that hot metal on their toes!
hahahhhahah.... you'all have a merry holidays!!! dm
 
Are you sure your bars are free of scale when you weld? I've been taught to grind each bard clean before staking them, and then grind the surface clean between each fold.

Also, if you use L6, you need to make sure the L6 is inside the billet, and is never on the outside. The reason why is that the scale on L6 includes some Ni oxides, that are too tough for plain ol' borax. So unless you mix a tiny bit of florspar w/ your borax, you won't clean the L6 of scale with your flux.

Do you use a power hammer, a treddle hammer, or do you do the welds by hand? You'll get inclusions if the bars move when you hit them so crowned die might be a problem.

Credits: All those are tips that I was given by Mischka, my teacher, or read on Don Fogg's site. Don's page on forge welding is here:

http://www.dfoggknives.com/forgeweld.htm

JD
 
I'm welding by hand Joss. I use a 5 pound hammer. I have been grinding the bars and welding the stack on the ends. But as I said, these are small stacks.
 
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