Why doesn't everyone prototype in CPM154?

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gomipile

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Apr 17, 2010
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I had been making prototypes with simple carbon steels. I've started working with CPM154, and it's startlingly easy to work with. I'd almost go so far as to recommend that every beginning knifemaker make their second knife from CPM154.

For reference, the CPM154 I'm using was purchased from Aldo.
 
Who said they don't?
I went with A2 on my first few then on to CPM 3V and CPM D2. There's nothing wrong with good ole 1084, but I see no reason to use simple steels unless you think you're going to screw up a lot or unless you plan on heat treating yourself. If you're pretty good at making things I'd say go ahead and go for 154CM or whatever for your first knife and ship it off to a pro heat treater.
 
I love 154cm as much as the next guy, but it's WAY cheaper for me to make prototypes out of 1084.

- Chris
 
blackcatt said:
I prototype in whatever steel I believe would be best for the design.
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Same here.

I do love CPM-154 for lots of designs, and agree that it's a fine choice for makers (even beginners) who want to try a stainless steel. It's not hard to work with, not crazy expensive, and with pro-level HT, it makes an excellent small-to-medium knife.
 
james terrio said:
Same here.

I do love CPM-154 for lots of designs, and agree that it's a fine choice for makers (even beginners) who want to try a stainless steel. It's not hard to work with, not crazy expensive, and with pro-level HT, it makes an excellent small-to-medium knife.
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With the rated toughness of CPM-154, how large would a knife have to be for another stainless steel to be a better choice for toughness alone? I've seen some pretty big highly regarded knives made from D2, and Crucible says that CPM154 is about twice as tough.
 
Not many stainless steels are tougher than cpm 154. XHP is probably a little tougher and Elmax is certainly tougher. Stainless steel is just not as suited to impact as rusting steels.

A rusting steel that has several % chromium will still resist staining pretty well and you can force a patina for added protection. 3V resists staining pretty darn well and has otherwise excellent properties.
 
gomipile said:
With the rated toughness of CPM-154, how large would a knife have to be for another stainless steel to be a better choice for toughness alone? I've seen some pretty big highly regarded knives made from D2, and Crucible says that CPM154 is about twice as tough.
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I'm not convinced that CPM-154 is "Twice as tough as D2". I feel it's somewhat tougher at the same hardness, but I certainly wouldn't say it's twice as tough... I simply haven't measured either accurately enough to make such a bold claim, and I haven't seen that big of a difference in my own knives.

I do agree that CTS-XHP and Elmax are noticeably tougher than CPM-154, in that order.

I do not agree with the phrase "rusting steels". It seems like a cheap jab at many excellent alloys that happen to be low in or lack chromium. ALL steel will rust under the right (wrong) conditions.

Personally, I don't use CPM-154 for blades longer than 6", and that's pushing it*... for "stainless" blades in that range I prefer Elmax.

CPM-3V is my go-to for any knife that will see lots of really hard work, including blades up to and beyond 9". It's really tough, has great edge-retention, and while not "stainless" it resists harmful corrosion much better than it usually gets credit for.

*EDIT: Chef and boning knives longer than 6" are an exception... CPM-154 is a great choice for long, slim slicers... not choppers.
 
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Rusting steel is an industry term I have heard. I'm not insulting all steel with <13% Cr ;) I use more "non stainless" these days as the properties other than corrosion resistance are usually superior.

..and agree, most any steel will rust in the right situation.

The comparison charts I've seen are wack in my opinion. There is almost always one or two bars on the chart that just seem totally wrong. I believe this is because test values are based on a notched charpy impact test that measures gross impact absorption. What knifemakers and users perceive as toughness is more based on edge chipping behavior, which is related to toughness, but also carbide/particle size and edge geometry etc.
 
Check my youtube channel. I did a Vid of beating the crap out of a 12" blade choppa I made. I chopped 14 GA steel sheet with it and bent and pried with it. Say what you will CPM154 is Freaking tuff!
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james terrio said:
I'm not convinced that CPM-154 is "Twice as tough as D2". I feel it's somewhat tougher at the same hardness, but I certainly wouldn't say it's twice as tough... I simply haven't measured either accurately enough to make such a bold claim, and I haven't seen that big of a difference in my own knives.

I do agree that CTS-XHP and Elmax are noticeably tougher than CPM-154, in that order.

I do not agree with the phrase "rusting steels". It seems like a cheap jab at many excellent alloys that happen to be low in or lack chromium. ALL steel will rust under the right (wrong) conditions.

Personally, I don't use CPM-154 for blades longer than 6", and that's pushing it*... for "stainless" blades in that range I prefer Elmax.

CPM-3V is my go-to for any knife that will see lots of really hard work, including blades up to and beyond 9". It's really tough, has great edge-retention, and while not "stainless" it resists harmful corrosion much better than it usually gets credit for.

*EDIT: Chef and boning knives longer than 6" are an exception... CPM-154 is a great choice for long, slim slicers... not choppers.
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jakehobackknives said:
Say what you will CPM154 is Freaking tuff!
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Also fair enough! I should clarify - I'm sure one could make whatever they like with CPM-154, including very large knives. I feel there are even better alloys for those applications, but I agree that CPM-154 handled right is excellent steel.
 
I have several templates made from 154cm and they have been great. They hold up very well to lots of scribing and I don't really have to worry about rust. I like having a hardened steel template so it will take lots of scribing and clamping without damage.

That being said I also have some O1 steel templates that have served just as well. I usually profile a few for a run and keep a template in whatever steel I am using.

For prototyping I use the steel I plan on using for the knife itself, it is nice to test the prototype in the steel it will be made in.
 
I just did a couple large chefs knives from an inexpensive steel- using CPM it would be thirty to fifty bucks worth of steel for one knife? Reasonable if it's sold when you start it but wow...
These were prototypes, in that before I start making a whole set in this pattern for the local kitchen shop I want to make sure the handle and balance is really nice for daily use.
 
me like play forge
carbon steel good
nostain bad
heat too high make hard and no smoke
too clean
 
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