WHy don't they get the recognition that others do???

Megalobyte

Megalobyte

Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
2,761
I have seen it time and again, a maker who puts out an incredible knife that is as good or better than some of the other, more popular makers, and for less money, often a LOT less. How is it that certain makers seem more able to get their knives to be more in demand than others? Simple marketing?

As an example, i recently bought an absolutely incredible japanese short sword (Tanto) by mastersmith Wally Hayes. I have looked this knife over very carefully, the F&F is flawless as good as i have seen on any similar knife, the blade is perfectly ground and forged, and the temper line (hamon) is the best looking i have seen on any sword under $5,000, and yet, compared to several other makers, the knife is truly cheap, cheaper than it should be. Another example is Geno Denning, i recently saw a few of his fixed blades, his workmanship is flawless, as good as any Brend ive seen and yet, his knives sell for relatively little money, and of course, i realize that you pay a lot for the Brend name, but still. Are guys like this great makers, but lousy businessmen? I would say, maybe they are up and comers, but Hayes certainly isnt and i dont think Denning is either, they have been around, do they intentionally charge less because they want to sell more knives? There are many more examples of this, but you get the picture and i suppose i would appreciate hearing from others some of their examples of makers who, for whatever reason make a killer knife, yet charge less than many of their competitors.

So, i was curious what your thoughts were on this apparent anomaly.
 
I imagine that unless there are special circumstances it's somethking called the "tipping point".

That is some people become interested, some loose interest, and hopefully the maker see s a steady increase. Then, if they are lucky, talented, work hard and the economy is, the demand suddenly takes off.
 
And how about when a maker lives in a more or less poor economy area, does not advertise, but still has plenty of business when a really good maker lives in a much better area and suffers low volume business? With no advertising, I have to beleive the maker with the larger volume of work simply has a better gift of gab, so to speak. Same way for higher bucks for a pretty much equal knife, and in some cases, the less fancy knife will bring more money. The answer, beleive it or not, is salesmanship and exposure. Any of you makers that has had serious sales experience will know this for a fact,too. The best knives in the world won't necessarily sell themselves. I have a fellow maker here in Iowa that is one hell of a maker, but his volume is low. Not because of his personality, which is really great, but he is a very quiet sort, but very sincere. And he stands behind his work 100%. But he really does not have a gift of gab when relating to strangers or the public. And unfortunately it reflects greatly on his volume.
 
Megalobyte DON'T ask why, Just buy up as many knives or swords as you can from them before they hit the mainstream. There are allot of awesome makers out there with price tags that are comparable with some production knives. Don't ask why, buy them up because it wouldn't last forever:)
 
There was a knifemaker in OKC by the name of Don Horne. He made approx.440 knives before he retired. He made a very good knife at a very good price. He never received the recognition he deserves because abuot a dozen of his fans (including me) bought up almost everything he made.
 
FUDO, as a retired CWO4 (F&S) from the Canoe Club (1975 - 2001) I am the blind squirrel that finds a acorn once in awhile. Here's a Don Horne (so they tell me...) Dagger I found on another knife forum: PM me and I will tell you what I know and paid for it. I suspect that you might consider the price I paid that I committed a felony...

733645-dagger-3.jpg


The sheath is dated 1985.
 
I had this very discussion with Wayne Goddard last night. I asked him to tell me who his favorite makers were, and he refused. He said he didn't have any. He told me there are unknown makers out there making knives better than anything you'll ever see in "Blade" or "Knives Illustrated" (I'm one of them, without the "making better knives" part):), so he couldn't really say who his "favorites" were, or who "made the best knife". It's all very subjective. I say that to say this: If I'm buying a custom knife, I'm buying it more for the knife than I am the name on it. If I like the knife, and the maker can tell me everything I want to know about it, and I think it's worth what he/she's asking, I buy it. If not, I won't. I know a guy right now that forges knives using a pile of dirt for a forge, and his knives'll out-cut damn near anything else I've seen. Plus, he makes them in smaller, more useful sizes, rather than these show-off behemoths that are not only impractical, but practically unusable. If you like it, buy it. It's good for the world of knives. I've managed to sell everything I can make in a parish (county to you non-Louisianians) with less than 6000 people in it. I'm trying to expand by putting one of my knives in a passaround, giving people who've never heard of me a chance to handle what I make, and tell me what they think. I'll take those suggestions and get better. But John Andrews is right; your "gift of gab" will sell a lot for you. You have to get your name out. Once you become a known quantity, your business will come. (assuming your rep and your product is a good one) Most guys I've talked to who do this don't necessarily want to make a profit. Making a useful object is the fun part. You just hope to make enough to buy more materials to make more, and maybe upgrade your equipment from time to time. Just my $.02, though.

BTW, Tim Hecht, that's a beautiful piece, and you're a very lucky man to own it.
 
Hi Tim- I can't pm, but I'm available via e-mail fudo@cox.net
I look forward to talking to you:)
BTW that's one of Don's alright
 
I agree, I bought a six inch bowie style fighter from a local maker this weekend at a local gun & knife show full of cheap stuff and Case knives. He was the lone knifemaker with a table. His work is very nice.

Here is an unknown, local guy who is a retired shop teacher that likes knives. He was inspired by Loveless and others in the knife world. Great guy, nice work and I was proud to buy one of his pieces.

Like many, I like all the "Big Boys" in the knife world and respect thier talent, skill and ability to make super nice knives while not being insulting to other makers. This attitude keeps the knife business a fun and enriching environment. I think we should all take time to check out local knifemakers and look beyond the name.

The best knife you own is the one in your hand when the need arises.
 
Sometimes I think some makers just don't get popular because they don't raise their prices. To a lot of folks, more $$$ = better. Simple, maybe stupid, but probably true in a lot of cases.
 
From a makers point of view what it comes down to is the fact that you have to market yourself, just having the gift of gab is not enough.

You have to advertise- the knife magazines are not cheap, $210 for a 1/12 of a page. Sometimes they will print a picture of one of your knives just because the like it.

You have to do lots of shows to get your name and face out there and meet the public. Once you are out of the publie eye, out of sight is out of mind.

It's also a matter of how long you have been making knives.
Do you sell at a lower price to dealers who have websites that can promote your work? Are your prices set in stone or are you willing to haggle?
I would rather sell a knife at a little lower price than have to take it home and bring it to another show.

Do you have a website? Do you promote yourself on the different forums?

You also have to take into account the type of knives that you are making and trying to sell. If you make a knife that looks like everyone else's then sometimes the more well known maker will sell his first.

You have to develop a style and a niche that sets you apart from everyone else, making your knives distinct and desirable. You also have to be constantly increasing the quality of your knives and re-invent youself when it comes to design.

Or you just have to have better grinds, materials, fit and finish than everyone else.

Two really good examples of this are Ken Onion and Darrel Ralph.
You see their print everywhere and their collaborations with production companies also helps get their product out there.

You can make the best knife in the world, but if no one knows who you are you can't sell it for what it's worth.
Back to the grinder,
CHuck
 
I'm buying the knife I like and not the makers name. Most of what I buy is used or will be used by my son and I so I don't buy with investment in mind. But I do have a price range with which I am comfortable.
 
Megalobyte,

I think you guessed correctly in your original post:

Simple marketing?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's probably the main reason. I wouldn't describe the marketing, itself, as necessarily being "simple", but the answer "marketing" is simple.

There can be any number of other factors, such as sheer luck, good connections, etc. But usually the difference between those who succeed well in the world of art or craft (whether it's knifemaking, photography [as is the case for me], glassblowing, cheesemaking, or whatever else) and those who don't is largely a matter of marketing. Of course, it helps if you are good at what you do... but marketing is usually a larger factor in success as an artist than quality.

For many, it's a bitter pill to swallow. I know it's a harsh reality for me, that marketing is so relevant to significant business success. Nobody becomes a knifemaker because s/he can't wait to sit in front of the computer tinkering with fonts and layouts for the next advertisement. Nobody becomes a photographer because s/he loves to build elaborate websites and come up with catchy slogans. Nobody becomes a glassblower because s/he can't wait for total immersion in the world of pricing strategies. But sadly, this is the sort of thing it takes to run a real business as an artist.

The most successful probably spend about 20-30% of the time doing knifemaking/photography/glassblowing/whatever, and the rest of the time seriously focused on sales and business. With this being how the business world operates for artists, many, who love their art and want to do what they love, choose (sometimes consciously, sometimes not) to let their business flounder in the little pond so that they can stay more focused on their art.

Mike
 
John Andrews said:
I have a fellow maker here in Iowa that is one hell of a maker, but his volume is low. Not because of his personality, which is really great, but he is a very quiet sort, but very sincere. And he stands behind his work 100%. But he really does not have a gift of gab when relating to strangers or the public. And unfortunately it reflects greatly on his volume.
Click to expand...

Hmmm..you talking about Mike Z? If not, let me know who...I love hearing about knifemakers in Iowa....there aren't many of them I think.

As for the question at hand, I think it's just a large mix of factors. Personality, marketing, makers intention and focus all come into play but so do other factors. In this day and age the internet is so powerful that trends come and go with sometimes little the maker can do to control that. The knife market is very unique in that items of relatively similar quality can sell for drastically different amounts based on the makers name alone.
 
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Just as there is no one feature that makes a great knife, there is no one reason for great recognition.

All the pieces have to fall in place.
 
I know a few makers who do Outstanding Work, but do not get the recognition they deserve. While I enjoy the fact I can get their knives at a good price, I do wish they could be more successful & make more money.

Conversely, I don't understand the success of some of the more popular makers. The work they are doing is no better than the others, and sometimes there is a bad attitude to go with it.
 
Personally the reason I don't buy cheap unknown makers knives whether or not they look good or work well is sad...I don't know where to find those sneaky dudes. I would certainly buy a knife is the price was right and I liked the style.
 
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