why have custom hunting knives migrated to carbon steel?

I'm not a hunter yet but my favorite knife youtuber, virtuovice, has several video where he debates the merits of A2 vs 3V steel. He goes back and forth a bit but I think he says he settles on preferring A2 even though he acknowledges that the particle metal 3V holds a useful edge for longer. Stropping the A2 steel up to super-sharpness is no trouble he says, and he claims that 3V forms very small chips (while still being usable) that are... upsetting :D

edit: I forgot 3V isn't stainless. oops.
 
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I would say cost is the main factor because it's sure not performance.
 
The Keyword is that you're seeing them for sale "HERE".

The Bladeforums are frequented by a lot of bladeSMITHS. Stainless isn't often forged. So the majority of the hunting knives you'll see will be carbon steel.

If you look outside of BF though and visit a knifeshow (I visited the A.G. Russell Knife Event last summer) you'll find a LOT more stainless. There were a lot less smiths present and a lot more stock removal guys.

In general most stock removal guys work in Stainless and most bladesmiths work in Carbon steels. (Exceptions exist in both cases however).
 
I find the price of a high quality stainless made by a reputable knifemaker is a lot of times quite high. Working with stainless in knife making from what I have been reading is much harder in most cases than with a simple carbon steel that will do everything a knife is supposed to do with the exception of having the rust resistance of a stainless.

Carbon steels often have properties such as toughness and ease of sharpening that are well suited to a wide variety of uses. I find stainless is often more specialized in it's uses due to it's properties while most carbon steels can be used for a wider variety of genenal tasks.

Don't get me wrong I do belive that you can approach that level of flexibility with a stainless or even surpass but doing so requires so much more work, specialized skill, and money.

I am more confident that a carbon steel will be done right in most cases because it is more forgiving to the maker.

I have seen factory knives with so called high quality stainless made by reputable companies with the latest and best equipment at their disposal that just don't hold an edge worth anything. Buying a high quality stainless from a reputable knifemaker is going to cost more for all the extra work he is going to put into it and I feel buying a stainless from a new or unknown maker can be risky.

The rust resistance of stainless is a very important advantage and can be a deal breaker depending on the environment and the type of use the knife will see.

I can get the designs I like for a lower price and not have to worry as much about quality control with a standard tried and true carbon.
 
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i myself prefere carbon to stainless. rolls to chips. can stainless be good? you for betcha. can carbon be good? you betcha. carbon steel knives have been used for many lifetimes in all enviroments. Stainless is relativly new, sometimes people have a difficulty with change "if it aint broke dun fix it "
 
Ankerson said:
I would say cost is the main factor because it's sure not performance.
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I agree with this 100%. I can sell a knife in O1 faster and easier than a knife in S90V. I personally would pick a high Vanadium steel like 10V or S90v or 3V any time over O1.
But this is just my opinion, and that is why I continue to use O1 in my knife making.
 
I haven't seen it posted yet, but one of the largest knife makers in the U.S,there primary Steel is 420stainless... Who am I talkin about? Buck Knives.With the exception to a few, there main steel is 420... Theres is a superb steel. I own a 110 and one of the Buck/Strider knives. I have had the Buck strider for 5 or6 years and it takes a wicked edge. And my buck 110 I had for 9 years and a damn cop stole it from me. My friend got it for me and now he's gone... That knife was never used, never sharpened ,other than from the factory. And he just took it, and said that it was illigal to carry it..bs its legal in illinois to carry one.He said hes taking the knife but he let me go with a warning.so after that I waited 5 hours and went to the police dept. ask to talk to a supervisor, I told him the situation, printed out the law and code, gave it to him showing it was legal, he then called the evidence tech to retrieve my knife, I gave him the officers name cuz it was it was on the warming slip, and after ten minutes he came back, told me there was not anything loged in, so he spoke to the cop who pulled me over and he told him that he never took my knife and he did not have it. So I'm out a knife that was givin to me by my friend who's gone and all I got was an apologie from the chief, and that there wasn't anything there able to do.so I am now in the process of taking legal matters. Against the thug cop who "ROBBED" me and the dept. I don't think it will go anywhere but at least now it will be known...... Sorry for hijacking you thread.....
 
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Big philly 1 said:
I haven't seen it posted yet, but one of the largest knife makers in the U.S,there primary Steel is 420stainless... Who am I talkin about? Buck Knives.With the exception to a few, there main steel is 420... This is a superb steel. I own a 110 and one of the Buck/Strider knives. I have had the Buck strider for 5 or6 years and it takes a wicked edge. And my buck 110 I had for 9 years and a damn cop stole it from me. My friend boughtut let me go wi that knife for me and now he's no longer her... That knife was never used, mer sharpened ,other than from the factory. And he just took it, and said that it was illigal to carry it..bs its legal in illinois to carry one.He said hes taking the knife but he let me go with a warning.so after that I waited 5 hours and went to the police dept. ask to talk to a supervisor, I told him the situation, printed out the law and code, gave it to him showing it was legal, he then called the evidence tech to retrieve my knife, I gave him the officers name cuz it was it was on the warming slip, and after ten minutes he came back, told me therein was not anything loged in, so he spoke to the cop who pulled me over and he told him that he never took my knife and he did not have it. So I'm out a knife that was givin to me by my friend who's gone and all I got was an apologie from the chief, and that there wasn't anything there able to do.so I am now in the process of taking legal matters. Against the thug cop who "ROBBED" me and the dept. I don't think it will go anywhere but at least now it will be known...... Sorry for hijacking you thread.....
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I hate hearing stories about crooked cops. What a way to ruin your day!
 
Carbon steel doesn't mean that it's not a good steel. In fact, I prefer some carbon steels over stainless for fixed blades especially and wouldn't say no to it in folders either. My favorite non-stainless steels for knives are 1095, O1, D2 and CPM M4. These take up a fair portion of my favorite steels along with S30V and S35V. More than half of my favorites are carbon steel.
 
Big Chris said:
I agree with this 100%. I can sell a knife in O1 faster and easier than a knife in S90V. I personally would pick a high Vanadium steel like 10V or S90v or 3V any time over O1.
But this is just my opinion, and that is why I continue to use O1 in my knife making.
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I agree, geometry, HT and design etc will make the knife perform even with a simple carbon steel, but replace that steel with a high wear resistant one and then we really have something that will perform off the scale.

It just depends on how much one wants to limit themselves and make no mistake they are limiting themselves, and depending on the steel it's more than they would believe, if they are already going with a custom knife to begin with then why not push it all the way and get the best performance they can? ;)

Yes it will cost more and that will depend on the steel choice, but one doesn't even have to go all the way to S90V to see real performance, something in the range of S30V or CPM 154 will give a lot better performance than the simple carbon steels.
 
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greater said:
I find the price of a high quality stainless made by a reputable knifemaker is a lot of times quite high. Working with stainless in knife making from what I have been reading is much harder in most cases than with a simple carbon steel that will do everything a knife is supposed to do with the exception of having the rust resistance of a stainless.

Carbon steels often have properties such as toughness and ease of sharpening that are well suited to a wide variety of uses. I find stainless is often more specialized in it's uses due to it's properties while most carbon steels can be used for a wider variety of genenal tasks.

Don't get me wrong I do belive that you can approach that level of flexibility with a stainless or even surpass but doing so requires so much more work, specialized skill, and money.

I am more confident that a carbon steel will be done right in most cases because it is more forgiving to the maker.

I have seen factory knives with so called high quality stainless made by reputable companies with the latest and best equipment at their disposal that just don't hold an edge worth anything. Buying a high quality stainless from a reputable knifemaker is going to cost more for all the extra work he is going to put into it and I feel buying a stainless from a new or unknown maker can be risky.

The rust resistance of stainless is a very important advantage and can be a deal breaker depending on the environment and the type of use the knife will see.

I can get the designs I like for a lower price and not have to worry as much about quality control with a standard tried and true carbon.
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The thread is about custom hunting knives and or knives that may see a lot of use and on large game much bigger than Whitetail deer.
 
Respectfully (and as an owner of a 420 110 and 440C 110 who has experienced the significant difference), if Buck's 420HC is "superb," what adjectives are left for the many far superior SS's? It's a long way from satisfactorily to superb.
 
A custom hunting knife, with the edge geometry matched to the steel will be no comparison in performance to a production knife. Yes my knife will cost more than the Gerber or Buck, but you will get your moneys worth in the advanced performance alone, not to mention the fact that you get to choose your materials to suit your tastes. I really enjoy and have learned a lot from reading the articles on Phil Wilson's website. This is a man that makes high performance fillet and hunting knives from the most high performing steels, and he grinds them "Thin to Win". Just seeing the cutting tests that Ankerson has performed on his knives makes me a complete believer in "super steels". It was the reading on Phil's site that pushed me to get some S90V to try the first time and I have been blown away by it's performance. I love playing with steels and edge geometry to get Crazy Cutters. I have a S90V boning knife that is under .010" behind the edge and you never feel it go through the meat, you just know that it has hit the cutting board. I loaned several of my knives out this past deer season so some of my non knife nut friends could see how much better the performance is with a custom. Two of my neighbors gave up their S30V knife to buy an O1 knife of mine. That tells me there that it does not have to be a super steel to be a super performer.
 
I think what happened is not that carbon is on the uptake...but rather than the obsession with stainless steel has finally run its course.

Both steel types have their advantages. And the old-wives-tale about stainless being crap doesn't apply anymore in the custom arena.

I took a 3V ShortNess with me on a guided group hog hunting trip a year or so ago. It was used by the guide to do a few hogs and I used it on mine. It was nearly half-a-day from the first dressing to the last one. The knife laid on the ground in between uses (because I had the sheath on me and I was out in the woods). No special care or treatment was given it. We let a young kid use it on his hog and the knife spent half its time cutting through the coarse dirt-packed hide...*groan*

Did not have to resharpen it. Did not rust or even tarnish.

Just wiped it clean the best they could and left it for the next guy to come in with his hog. (The guide's knife broke...asked to borrow mine...oops!)

Carbon steels have come a long way too with higher-vanadium alloys and CPM steels.

I don't really see any reasons to choose stainless over a quality carbon steel like 3V.

My 0.02
YMMV

Dan
 
Daniel Koster said:
I think what happened is not that carbon is on the uptake...but rather than the obsession with stainless steel has finally run its course.

Both steel types have their advantages. And the old-wives-tale about stainless being crap doesn't apply anymore in the custom arena.

I took a 3V ShortNess with me on a guided group hog hunting trip a year or so ago. It was used by the guide to do a few hogs and I used it on mine. It was nearly half-a-day from the first dressing to the last one. The knife laid on the ground in between uses (because I had the sheath on me and I was out in the woods). No special care or treatment was given it. We let a young kid use it on his hog and the knife spent half its time cutting through the coarse dirt-packed hide...*groan*

Did not have to resharpen it. Did not rust or even tarnish.

Just wiped it clean the best they could and left it for the next guy to come in with his hog. (The guide's knife broke...asked to borrow mine...oops!)

Carbon steels have come a long way too with higher-vanadium alloys and CPM steels.

I don't really see any reasons to choose stainless over a quality carbon steel like 3V.

My 0.02
YMMV

Dan
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By Carbon steels I think they ment steels like 1095, 01, 5160, 52100 etc.

I don't even classify the steels as carbon steels, I personally use Non Stainless or Stainless, then either high alloy or low alloy (Simple).

Calling something like CPM 10V a carbon steel as an example..... Well... That's a severe understatement and it's been around for over 34 years now I believe, it was Crucibles 1st CPM Steel.

Some of the steels are just too advanced and the alloy content being very high in some cases to go with the old carbon steel name and the carbon content in a lot of the Stainless and High Alloy Non Stainless is VERY high, in the 2.5-3% range compared to a simple low alloy non stainless like 1095.

That's the way I think about it anyway to keep things straight. :)

That said 3V is a good steel, I wouldn't say it's a carbon steel though with the alloy content.

Non stainless and it's pretty stain resistant depending.
 
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Carbon steel is really only the 10xx series steels, but we have faced this black/white simplification of stainless and non. It is funny when people call D2 a carbon steel when it has 12% chromium, or when something like REX 121 at 35% carbide is considered "simpler" than 12C27.
 
LX_Emergency said:
The Keyword is that you're seeing them for sale "HERE".

The Bladeforums are frequented by a lot of bladeSMITHS. Stainless isn't often forged. So the majority of the hunting knives you'll see will be carbon steel.

If you look outside of BF though and visit a knifeshow (I visited the A.G. Russell Knife Event last summer) you'll find a LOT more stainless. There were a lot less smiths present and a lot more stock removal guys.

In general most stock removal guys work in Stainless and most bladesmiths work in Carbon steels. (Exceptions exist in both cases however).
Click to expand...

+1 .
 
hardheart said:
Carbon steel is really only the 10xx series steels, but we have faced this black/white simplification of stainless and non. It is funny when people call D2 a carbon steel when it has 12% chromium, or when something like REX 121 at 35% carbide is considered "simpler" than 12C27.
Click to expand...


Yeah, exactly...
 
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