Why INFI??

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Oct 13, 2011
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by why INFI, I mean why is it that every discussion about what steel is better for a particular application that comes up some genius says "oh... obviously INFI is best" end of statement. Nobody else can use "INFI" and for all anyone knows it's not even an actual steel but as speculated by many, just a great steel that's already in use by the masses, but with a wicked heat treat. Not that it matters... any more than "carbon V" matters. it's Jerry's secret and that's 100% fine... just everyone else please shut up about it when someone is looking for an actual intelligent response to something they are trying to find out. people generally come on here to get information to make their knives and knifemaking better and the last thing anyone needs for advice is "get yourself some INFI" well, we can't, so what else would you propose?
 
i wonder if anyone has actually tested that stuff to see how good it is as far as a blade steel. the secondary edges look a little thick on their knives.
 
i wonder if anyone has actually tested that stuff to see how good it is as far as a blade steel. the secondary edges look a little thick on their knives.
It has been tested several times and the composition posted here on BladeForums.

Chuck
 
by why INFI, I mean why is it that every discussion about what steel is better for a particular application that comes up some genius says "oh... obviously INFI is best" end of statement. Nobody else can use "INFI" and for all anyone knows it's not even an actual steel but as speculated by many, just a great steel that's already in use by the masses, but with a wicked heat treat. Not that it matters... any more than "carbon V" matters. it's Jerry's secret and that's 100% fine... just everyone else please shut up about it when someone is looking for an actual intelligent response to something they are trying to find out. people generally come on here to get information to make their knives and knifemaking better and the last thing anyone needs for advice is "get yourself some INFI" well, we can't, so what else would you propose?

It depends what subforum you ask that question in. I've never seen anyone say that a maker should use infi in a shoptalk thread. General knife discussion subforum is another matter...
 
It depends what subforum you ask that question in. I've never seen anyone say that a maker should use infi in a shoptalk thread. General knife discussion subforum is another matter...

no, no maker ever has... but every time a thread that has to do with the "best steel" for a given task, some genius comes up and says "INFI..... whatever" and why? no reasons... nothing to back it up. they likely never even did anything more than look at it or chop a few branches in the back yard. There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do with INFI other than Busse so why do people always go back to saying that "its the best for...blank..." when it most likely isn't. I saw it again the other day so this is why I bought it up and to me the argument is pointless, it's like saying adamantium is the best steel for a knife because it's indestructible and holds an edge forever... we can't use it, so why bring it up? If I'm not mistaken, Jerry himself said "3V was tougher" and if 3v is tougher, there are a lot of others that are tougher still ...or like most things that's a quote I am repeating from someone else who said they were quoting him, and that's the point. if it's not a thing we can use and test in making a knife, why bring it up (and someone always does) when hard use steels come into play? I am starting to have a hard time taking people at their word who repeat the same thing over and over with absolutely zero of their own facts and the mystery of "INFI" is one of those that gets on the nerves.

p.s. Chuck... if it was analyzed, can you tell us what it was close to? I'm off to search now, but I was wondering if it was in fact a proprietary steel so I can at least learn about it as well.
 
no, no maker ever has... but every time a thread that has to do with the "best steel" for a given task, some genius comes up and says "INFI..... whatever" and why? no reasons... nothing to back it up. they likely never even did anything more than look at it or chop a few branches in the back yard. There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do with INFI other than Busse so why do people always go back to saying that "its the best for...blank..." when it most likely isn't. I saw it again the other day so this is why I bought it up and to me the argument is pointless, it's like saying adamantium is the best steel for a knife because it's indestructible and holds an edge forever... we can't use it, so why bring it up? If I'm not mistaken, Jerry himself said "3V was tougher" and if 3v is tougher, there are a lot of others that are tougher still ...or like most things that's a quote I am repeating from someone else who said they were quoting him, and that's the point. if it's not a thing we can use and test in making a knife, why bring it up (and someone always does) when hard use steels come into play? I am starting to have a hard time taking people at their word who repeat the same thing over and over with absolutely zero of their own facts and the mystery of "INFI" is one of those that gets on the nerves.

p.s. Chuck... if it was analyzed, can you tell us what it was close to? I'm off to search now, but I was wondering if it was in fact a proprietary steel so I can at least learn about it as well.

You are mistaken, Jerry posted about 3v in relation to possibly switching out sr101 (52-100) for 3v. If I am not mistaken, Jerry said 3v did not perform better than sr101 (except corrosion resistance) or INFI. Now I am not sure I believe that but it is what it is I guess.
 
The thread Jerry posted this in is closed so I had to just copy and paste instead of quote:



http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...e-else-have-a-3V-knife-outperform-their-Busse








Accelerated salt spray tests show a huge difference in corrosion resistance and pitting between the two steels. . . . INFI was the clear winner.

Under heavy impact on hard subtrates we found micro chipping along the edge of 3V blades as opposed to minor disallingment on INFI.

Lateral strength tests as well as ease of resharpening also went in favor of INFI.

We have done a LOT of in-house testing with 3V. We still use INFI. . . . there's a reason for that.

When we find a steel that out performs INFI across the board, you can rest assured that we will be using that steel instead of INFI.

Want a better comparison? Put 3V up against SR-101. They are much closer in performance with us giving the nod to SR-101 for superior toughness, impact strength, lateral strength, and edge-holding. 3V is, however, much more corrosion resistant than SR-101.

Our "LIVE" performance demonstration has stood the test of time since 1999. Any maker or manufacturer who wants to duplicate our "LIVE" demos with 3V or any other steel is more than welcome to do so. We only insist that these "LIVE" performance tests be performed by the maker or manufacturer themselves.

This offer has been extended to the entire industry for the past 14 years. . . . There have been no takers to this date.

That being said, it is important to note that there are many fine steels out there and there are many that excell at particular performance demands.

For the demands that our knives are designed to be put through, INFI is by far the clear winner.

Let's Drink!
 
thanks Chris... and I'm not saying INFI isn't better for a given use than 3V, it was just another repeated quote. hell... until I test all of the steels myself, or someone does an actual side by side fair comparison I can't say any steel is better or worse for a given application. Time will tell I guess.
 
Like I said, I am not 100% sold this testing was done fairly. Just Showing you what Jerry said, my personal experience with 3v from Dan Winkler and Big Chris is 3v is damn near stainless. Even more so than D2, that is just my experience though.
 
INFI is well known to be a special smelt steel. Nathan the machinist has done some great head to head testing of INFI vs 3V and his own heat treat for 3V did quite well against INFI . The proof is out there you just need to look for it. Many people have used INFI to failure and found it to be what everyone says it is.
 
It is A8 modified, designed for toughness with good wear properties. My son Larrin just attended a conference that talked about the grade and other grades.

Hoss
 
INFI is well known to be a special smelt steel. Nathan the machinist has done some great head to head testing of INFI vs 3V and his own heat treat for 3V did quite well against INFI . The proof is out there you just need to look for it. Many people have used INFI to failure and found it to be what everyone says it is.

I worry that makes it sound like I'm trying to take on Infi with 3V in some sort of competitive way. I want to be very clear, I'm not.

All makers need examples of good quality standards to compare their work to in order to know where they are. If you're not able to accurately duplicate edge geometry and cut tests, you're not really ready to do this yet, but at some point you all need to accumulate samples of other known good work and start to quantify what edge retention and cutting performance really means. Infi is one of my standards, and it's a great standard because it has the gross edge durability that 3V often lacks. It is a gold standard for certain kinds of thing. I have nothing but respect for Jerry Busse and Infi steel because what he has been able to achieve with it. I have a Dozier D2 and a Cashen O1/L6 blend in there too. These are people who put a lot of work into getting it right, and it's helpful to study their work.

When you look at the steel performance comparison charts from places like Crucible you'll see things like "toughness" and wear resistance or edge holding or something, and for our application that's mostly a bunch of crap that could lead you to believe that something like S30V is super tough and has phenomenal edge retention. If a test is based on CATRA testing, a steel with lots of abrasion resistant vanadium carbide is going to do well. But in the real world people don't just sit there and lightly saw at abrasive card stock for hours at a time. In the real world, the ability of the matrix to support those carbides in a less-than-ideal cut is much more important.

Jerry Busse was right. For most people, their knives don't go dull from just abrasive wear. The edge deteriorates from either rolling or micro chipping just as much as abrasive or adhesive wear. So he optimized an alloy and a heat treat for toughness at both a gross level and at a microscopic level. Infi wears away abrasively, but you're hard pressed to dull it quickly from rough use.

3V has much better abrasive wear resistance, but that doesn't always translate into better edge retention because it can have that chippy mushy edge that the super steels often have. It can cut cardboard better than Infi, unless you're clacking against a hard cutting board at the end of the cut, and then Infi shines.

Those of use who have really optimized 3V have got it to equal the gross edge stability of Infi, which allows the better wear resistance of 3V to translate into better edge holding. But Infi will always have better gross toughness, so extremely rough use that is going to damage a knife will cause less damage to Infi.

In the final analysis, I think it is safe to say that both steels are very tough, with Infi the tougher of the two. And both steels have good edge retention, with 3V the better wearing of the two. Neither steel has great abrasive wear resistance and will dull in cardboard or leather faster than D2, but 3V is clearly the winner there. In my opinion, a knife that might see some rough or careless use either steel will perform much better than most of the other options out there. If you think you might need to chop a freakin boat anchor in half you should probably go with the Infi, and if you might need to cut a bunch of dirty and abrasive vegetation then you should probably go with 3V. They both perform very well in less-then-ideal situations. For my use, I get better results with 3V, but it is abundantly clear to me that plenty of people are well served with Infi.
 
3v is good stuff for sure tho i have moved to CTS-PD1 as i cn get it harder and still not run into chippy edge issues
 
Nathan it was not my intention to make it sound like you ran a competition . I fully understood your comparison testing was to use INFI as a known standard of good results so you could dial in your work with 3V trying to get what you wanted out of it. The Best thing about Busse knives is the guy who created them is a inteligent person and loves for people to push his products . Mr Busse loves knives and isn't afaid of users and competition.
 
I worry that makes it sound like I'm trying to take on Infi with 3V in some sort of competitive way. I want to be very clear, I'm not.

All makers need examples of good quality standards to compare their work to in order to know where they are. If you're not able to accurately duplicate edge geometry and cut tests, you're not really ready to do this yet, but at some point you all need to accumulate samples of other known good work and start to quantify what edge retention and cutting performance really means. Infi is one of my standards, and it's a great standard because it has the gross edge durability that 3V often lacks. It is a gold standard for certain kinds of thing. I have nothing but respect for Jerry Busse and Infi steel because what he has been able to achieve with it. I have a Dozier D2 and a Cashen O1/L6 blend in there too. These are people who put a lot of work into getting it right, and it's helpful to study their work.

When you look at the steel performance comparison charts from places like Crucible you'll see things like "toughness" and wear resistance or edge holding or something, and for our application that's mostly a bunch of crap that could lead you to believe that something like S30V is super tough and has phenomenal edge retention. If a test is based on CATRA testing, a steel with lots of abrasion resistant vanadium carbide is going to do well. But in the real world people don't just sit there and lightly saw at abrasive card stock for hours at a time. In the real world, the ability of the matrix to support those carbides in a less-than-ideal cut is much more important.

Jerry Busse was right. For most people, their knives don't go dull from just abrasive wear. The edge deteriorates from either rolling or micro chipping just as much as abrasive or adhesive wear. So he optimized an alloy and a heat treat for toughness at both a gross level and at a microscopic level. Infi wears away abrasively, but you're hard pressed to dull it quickly from rough use.

3V has much better abrasive wear resistance, but that doesn't always translate into better edge retention because it can have that chippy mushy edge that the super steels often have. It can cut cardboard better than Infi, unless you're clacking against a hard cutting board at the end of the cut, and then Infi shines.

Those of use who have really optimized 3V have got it to equal the gross edge stability of Infi, which allows the better wear resistance of 3V to translate into better edge holding. But Infi will always have better gross toughness, so extremely rough use that is going to damage a knife will cause less damage to Infi.

In the final analysis, I think it is safe to say that both steels are very tough, with Infi the tougher of the two. And both steels have good edge retention, with 3V the better wearing of the two. Neither steel has great abrasive wear resistance and will dull in cardboard or leather faster than D2, but 3V is clearly the winner there. In my opinion, a knife that might see some rough or careless use either steel will perform much better than most of the other options out there. If you think you might need to chop a freakin boat anchor in half you should probably go with the Infi, and if you might need to cut a bunch of dirty and abrasive vegetation then you should probably go with 3V. They both perform very well in less-then-ideal situations. For my use, I get better results with 3V, but it is abundantly clear to me that plenty of people are well served with Infi.

Wow... that was definitely the best explanation of INFI vs 3V I have ever seen plus very practical metallurgy education!!!
 
May as well open up a can of worms again here.... INFI vs 3V vs BUTTER KNIFE VS BOX CUTTER VS BUTCHERS CLEAVER VS AXE VS LASER VS TITANIUM VS DIAMOND VS ASTEROID. ASTEROID. Sorry gents had to release abit of fun but respect. We all can agree on one thing and that is the quest and thirst will always remain to find the ultimate knife.... just 1.
 
Youll probably have someone come through and tell ya this thread is old :)

But... ill add to the worms.
Im very interested in blunt cut metal works ht testing :thumbsup:
 
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