Why is ats-34 so prevalent among custom makers ?

R

RKnight

Joined
Jan 11, 1999
Messages
537
I'm coming from info picked up here at BFC.

There have been rumors/statements that:

The price of ats-34 stock increased dramatically over the last 2 - 3 years.

That Hitachi may cease production.

That the quality has deteriorated recently (does that mean within the the last 1 - 2 years?).

According to Les, there is tons of it on hand.

Some questions come to mind.

If it has deteriorated, is it significant?

If it is, how does one know if the stock is from an inferior batch.

Who is in possession of this massive inventory?

If there is an oversupply will the price to makers come down due to supply/demand. Or has that happened already.

A couple of makers have switched to 154cm (supposedly cleaner), and a couple to bg-42 (supposedly takes a keener edge at some cost in toughness). Are they indeed better.

Better put this in perspective. I'm not talking survival, or field use, I'm talking street steel, folders.

The cpm steels are probably way more expensive and I'm not sure if the optimal parameters for heat treat, and hardness are completely worked out and understood by everyone. I'ts certainly not clear to me.
Interestingly, I did read that Perrin is experimenting with 440v. Perhaps something about the Spydie Military caught his attention. Normally he doesn't get into exotic steels.

Rick Hinderer offers a 3 1/2" satin 'tactical folder' in D2, a nice alternative IMO.

Back to the original question, why do top custom makers with very few exceptions continue to use ats-34?

Any answers to the other questions would be appreciated.

------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
 
When I started making a few years ago, I picked 440C and ATS-34 because they were reasonably priced for stainless, readily available in many sizes, and fairly well regarded. I found that I couldn't tell the two apart in use (possibly because the ATS-34 was treated a bit softer than "usual," whihc I like), but I found the ATS-34 more pleasant to grind and customers held it in higher regard. That's why I work with it, though I've started experimenting with D2, 440V, and hopefully soon others.

As for your questions,

I haven't bought steel in a while. I was checking out prices recently and it seemed to me that ATS-34 had come down somewhat, so that instead of 30-40% more than 440C or so, it was now closer to 10-20% more. 440V is 200%-300% more, for comparison.

I'm amused and confused by these rumors regarding 154CM, as they're exactly the opposite of what folks said 5 years ago. I was always told American makers turned away from 154CM and started using ATS-34 because the former had deteriorated in quality. Now people are saying the opposite? Sheesh, I dunno...

My plans are to continue testing and if I like what I see from the particle steels, probably move away from ATS-34. It's a fine steel when it's not so hard as to be brittle, but in a knife folks are special-ordering and paying $150+ for, I think that materials should be the best possible, not merely good. The price of 440V, 420V, or even Talonite isn't so bad when compared with Damascus, which people are happy to pay for even though its merits are mostly aesthetic. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with ATS-34, though - it's still a good standard to separate the "adequate" steels used in most production knives and the truly exceptional types normally used only by makers.

-Drew
 
Tom,


could not have said it any better. Your statement is rite on target. Knife buyers have demanded knives in ats because the knife media has convinced them it is the best. So that is what the makers use. Why use something the consumer does not want rite?


Regards,

Tom Carey
 
Ron,

Several years ago Bob Loveless said that ATS-34 was to be the steel of choice.

Oddly enough the difference between ATS-34 and 154CM is almost non-exsistant. However, Bob said it was better.

A couple things that are not being taken into account are:

1) 12 years ago, there were a lot less knife makers.

2) Blade Magazine and Knife World were the only two pure knife magazines.

3) The knowledge base of the average customer was not even close to what it is today.

4) The Internet did not exsist. Consequently, the exchange of information was not available then like it is today.

The price of the steel is not really a concern. Most makers use ATS-34, because that is what the customer wants. If a steel or Alloy is more expensive (D-2, Talonite or Stellite), then the maker simply charges more money. At that point the customer either pays it or cancels the order.

Today, there are a lot more choices than there were a decade ago. How much better is one steel over another for the average knife user. It is marginal.

The point someone made about ATS-34 for a big knife is a poor choice. Is not entirely correct. If heat treated correctly, it will serve it's owner well.

For myself I prefer D-2 for a large field knife, due to its toughness. No, it is not brittle if the Rockwell is 57-59. Too many makers take it to 61-62, this will make it brittle.

Ats-34 will be around for some years to come. However, the time is coming that it will be less and less desireable.

For those of you who like to think long term when it comes to your knife. I would start asking makers to use 440V, 420V and BG-42.

ATS-34 is quickly becoming "last centuries steel".

Guys, like it or not, people are always looking for the latest and greatest. ATS-34 is neither.

Les
 
Thanks for the response Les.

Glad to see you're still around.

------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
 
Les: You are sounding more like a knifemaker all the time! And, your knowledge of steel is really increasing! HA!
ATS34 has become more expensive due to the import tariff imposed several years ago, on foreign steels. I had stopped using it before then, and, as I don't use any imported steels, don't know if the tariff is still in place.
As for stainless steels of choice, BG42 is considerably superior to ATS, although most won't notice the difference, particularly if the heat treatment is non-ideal, as it frequently is. It's cleaner, has a better alloy content, and, is made by a better process. Remember, BG42 is a ball bearing grade, and, that requires really pure stuff.
As to CPM420V, CPM440V, some of the more adventurous knifemakers, such as myself, are delving in right now. These steels will certainly fit the bill for some knives, but, probably won't emerge as superior in all applications where a stain resistant alloy is required. Personally, I will be going on the upper side of the hardness range for these two alloys, and dealing with the lower toughness by picking a more robust blade geometry. I am not impressed with hardnesses of Rc55/56, regardless of the wear resistance. It's just not hard enough to prevent edge roll-over, IMHO.
I will keep the Forums posted as I continue with these new steels.

RJ Martin
 
taking the defensive....ats is a GREAT steel in big knives if the heat treat is done right..i have found it to be very very strong and very resistant to any kind of damage....and the cpm vanadium steels dont roll over at low hardnes...period....sorry. but thats my opinion...ive been using 440v for almost 3 years now and paul heat treats them at the same rockwell as 440c and it takes the most precise razor edge and stays that way even under heavy use...sincerely

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
I don't know if any of you know Don Maxwell. He makes very nice fixed blades and folders. He told me something at Blade Show West that amazed me. He said that, in terms of the finished product when the knife is mirror polished, ATS-34 will get better results than 440C. He said that 440C is a bit grainy. I was surprised.

 
I made a 15"-bladed heavy machete sort of thing, fully flat-ground from 3/16" ATS-34. It chopped down saplings, whacked its way through a hardwood 4"x4", split many stacks of coins, and eventually I began whacking aluminum barstock with it. The edge showed no chipping and only slight deformation from the barstock.

I'm not saying that ATS-34 is my top pick for a big knife, but it doesn't seem to me to be as bad as some would say.

It's the new standby, the current 440C (which is a fine steel in its own right, but highly variable). I think the fact that newer materials (especially particle steels) offer better performance is being mis-interpreted as ATS-34's inadequacy. As long as the hardness is kept under 60Rc or so, it still seems to me to outperform or at least equal a host of other steels like the 440 series, the AUS series, 12C27, etc.

Let's not go overboard and damn ATS-34 just because newer and (possibly) better things come along. This is what happened to 440C, and that's a shame.

-Drew
 
I believe that most if not all knifemakers choose the steel they use, based on there experiences with said steel. I believe there choices have little to do with trends. Knifemakers are not typically trend followers. If they were then they would be punching a time clock, instead of making knives. I doubt that there are many custom makers, if any, that would use any steel that they did not feel was the best for the type of knives they make. Ats-34 is no exception. If a maker is using it, then it is probably because they believe it to be best, for the type of knives they make. That is atleast the reason I use it. I would be willing to bet that is the reason, it is the most used steel by knifemakers that don't forge.


I think that all of the steels being used by custom makers are great for certain applications. They all have there places. I would not critisize any of the popular steels. ATS-34 happens to be my choice. I respect the choice of other to use the steel they see best for there knives. I respect the choice of customers to by the knives that best fit there needs. As I am sure we all do.

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Lynn Griffith-Tactical KnifemakerMy website
See my award winning "Spec Ops Tanto" in Gallery 3 of my website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
Tom,

I think we're probably just getting hung up over semantics here. Like I said, not my top pick for the application but far from inadequate.

It's as if I was going for a little race. ATS-34 isn't a Lamborghini Diablo or Ferrari F50... but it's no Trabant, either. More like a Vette - unless you're Mario Andretti, it's still more car than you're ever going to need. We shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that just because it won't top 200mph like the newest supercars, we'll have trouble making it around the block.

That's what I've seen, anyhow. Stuck in the wilderness, ATS-34 wouldn't be my first choice for that big Bowie, no. Neither would D-2 or any other stainless. But I'd be happy with either of those and bet they'd do whatever I needed so long as I had the skill to use them.

-Drew
 
I picked up a used book recently on custom knives, from the 1970s, and they mention a new steel being used by some knife makers, which was 154-CM. I had the impression that no one asked for it, rather some knife maker tried it out, it worked well, and they decided to use it in their product line. It seems to still be popular as for those who use their knives it holds an edge and is reasonably tough. Most people will test edge holding on a regular basis, that's why they need to sharpen their knives once in awhile, but few will test toughness, especially in custom knives as they're usually not cheap and the failure modes are often not recoverable.

One of my favorite makers, Bob Dozier, showed how to make a knife in the book.
 
Some Hitachi data on ATS-34, which I guess most know about, indicates that with a hardnes of Rc58 to Rc59 the toughness is between what one could obtain with D2 and A2 at Rc59 and Rc60, and with wear resistance even better than D2. It seems that most harden their ATS-34 blades a few points higher, which could explain some of the complaints about brittleness. Also, while most like the edge holding of ATS-34 I don't hear too many saying that it's good for 4 to 5 deer like I hear with D2.
 
I'd like to take it one step further and challenge you and any other knifemaker that likes to expound the virtues of "properly heat treated" ats34 as super steel for big knives to submit a knife for the forums Busse test. I'm not hard to convince.
I'll take test results over testimony any time.
Click to expand...
Tom,
I am posting this in the friendliest way. So please know that.

KodiakPa has done a test on the Busse. He has one of my bowies on order. That he bought with his own money. He will be doing a test on it. I have not asked for the test. I have not paid for test. He contacted me about ordeing the bowie, with the intentions of testing it. I am sure that he will be very unbiased with his test. Especially since it is his hard earned money that purchased the knife. He has also waited a couple of months to get the bowie, and has some more wait to go.

I look forward to his review. As I am sure you do too. Will be nice for me to know how it compares to the Busse. Especially since I have never held a Busse in my hands.

Thank,

------------------
Lynn GriffithMy website
GriffithKN@aol.com


 
I got kinda' down on ATS-34 there for awhile, and I started asking knife makers why they offered it, and the most common reply was because that was what their customers asked for. Loveless spoke.
wink.gif


On a fancy knife, collectors want a steel that won't corrode at the drop of a hat, and is at least in the big leagues as far as knife steel goes. BG-42 might be a little better in that regard, but the CPM steels are hard to finish, or so I've been told.

The way it appears to me now, BG-42 may be finer grained, seemed like it on the Sebenza I had, but may not be any tougher or hold an edge all that much better than ATS-34. A lot of people on the knife list don't seem to be able to get it in 1/8" or thinner from their usual sources.

CPM420V sure as heck holds an edge longer. Is it tougher, or less tough? Gonna havta' figure that one out myself to be sure.

Well tempered ATS-34 is pretty darn good. It doesn't rust like crazy, holds a pretty good edge, and is reasonably tough. I have a 6" blade, 3/16" thick from Black Cloud knives that I consider my benchmark for ATS-34 toughness. I haven't found any conceivable task for such a blade that can hurt it. It is great stuff. Ernest Mayer has made a lot of 20" short swords for Laci Szabo. These are not pricey collector pieces, and I know they have gone to people who thrash them. He gets no complaints about their performance, only compliments. That's at 61 RcH.

So, from custom makers who are uncompromising in their heat treatment, the line between ATS-34 and its competition isn't all that clearly drawn, at least from my perspective. ATS-34 knife blades don't make very good screwdrivers though, as we all know.
 
Ron,
Back to the basic question.

I use ATS-34 because it's a good knife steel. In the '80s when it got popular, it was available in every conceivable thickness and width, and still is. That was great for me and the customer since I could build just about anything a customer came up with, at a reasonable price. I've built field knives with 12" blades and never had one come back. The bulk of those customers were military and they did use them.

154CM was prone to pitting (pin holes and voids) during the grinding process, came in limited sizes, and was expensive. Haven't tried any lately but I've not had a customer ask for it, either.

440C was and still is a great knife steel. Customers just wanted the "new" steel. 440C got a bad rap from the cheap imported knives marked "440" steel. Most were 440A.

I currently try to keep about 10 different steels in the shop, and all are great knife steels. Which one is best? I don't know, but I can build a folder with any one of them and there will be a customer who wants it. I got that much confidence in them.

I'm a big fan of 420V(difficult to heat treat and finish), 440V(not quite as difficult to heat treat and finish as 420V), Stellite 6K (difficult to go from barstock to pattern since you can't bandsaw it, and difficult to grind), and D2 (easier then the above but still on the difficult side).

I guess the bottom line answer to your question is that ATS-34 is still a great knife steel. It can't be a fad, it's been around too long. Bellbottoms were a fad.

Let me stick my neck out here - My veiw is that makers that do their own heat treating tend to offer more steels. When blades are sent out for heat treat, usually it's priced by weight of the same steel. 3 different blade steels = 3 different batches = higher costs for the final product, so it's easier to stick with only one blade steel and swear it is the best steel out there.



 
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