Why is it . . .

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bladefoolish

Joined
Mar 26, 2004
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Why is it that once reputable knife companies start producing crap, and lessening their reputations?

I used to like Gerber, but most of the ones I would still own were made 15 years ago.

The same with Cold Steel. I still have several, but none newer than about 20 years old.

I was a fan of Marble's, when they were still marked "Gladestone, MI" . Some of the new Marble's' may be decent knives, but it appears they're making a bunch of inferior knives now.

Why are once quality knife companies producing low end stuff now? Trying to compete with all the knives made in China and Taiwan? At least Benchmade uses the different classes to separate thei better stuff from the cheaper made products from the better stuff.
 
Compete or die.

Those of us who are willing to spend more than $100 on a knife probably make up less than 2% of the knife buying population. If your entire line is made up of expensive knives, you're not going to last very long.
 
I have a friend that owns a knife store, and he tells me that in the knife world the $50 mark is some magical mystical mark that they try to hit. He sells a tremendous amount of knives to landscapers looking for a cheap knife to cut thru burlap, construction guys looking for beaters to use on the job every day, and kids. He carries a fair amount of high end stuff, but sells a lot of the lower end knives.

I have been in the store for long stretches and see the buyers - most are not knife enthusiasts like the people on this forum, and are not coming into the store with extensive knowledge. There are also a good amount of girlfriends and wives looking for presents (birthday, Fathers Day, etc.) for their significant others, and I hear them give the only criteria as "I don't want to spend more than xxx$$".

I think its all about market share. I will also say that the flea market guys do a brisk business - I am truly amazed at the low quality stuff they sell, and the people who buy it.

I have a friend who works in the security / armored car business who carries a flea market POS every day and loves it. He has no idea why I am so picky about my knives.

I guess in order to hit the $50 price point the makers have to compromise - quality, materials, craftsmanship.
 
"I guess in order to hit the $50 price point the makers have to compromise - quality, materials, craftsmanship. "

I think that a decent -- not first class -- but decent knife can be made for this, for example John Greco as an individual maker, or the Byrd line from Spyderco. And I understand -- sorta -- the econmomics, and the fact that most people care more about price than quality. But it still pains me that manufactuers from who I would once buy their products on their reputation for quality alone now make not just inexpensive, but cheap knives in terms of both price and performance.

I can't tell you number of times people who know I collect knives hand me their latest POS and ask me what I think of their knife. I'm hard pressed to come up with a polite answers.
 
Its the lure of profit margins.

Yesterday I read an interview with the guy who owns mesa engineering (who make the boogie amps which are high end guitar and bass amplifiers) and he was talking about how CBS and Norlin ruined fender and gibson during the 70s and how he would never let that happen to his company. But really, how many guys have that sort of determination? How do we know that someone doesnt go and offer him 2 bil USD for his company and he parts with it?

Everyone has a price. Ever hear "but I love making XXX", thats almost always true, but that love has a price.

And even if the guy who owns the company cares about the product, the accountants dont. They view an expensive knife or a super car simply as a more expensive version of a cheap one. To an accountant, a sebenza and a flea market knife are the same in every way except for the price to make it and the price they can sell it at.
 
I know nothing about manufacturing, but, really, how much more would it add to the cost of a knife to make it out of, say, 440C, and give it a decent heat treatment? My impression is that the cost of the steel is a minor part of the expense involved in the production, so why not use a decent steel at least?
 
bladefoolish said:
I know nothing about manufacturing, but, really, how much more would it add to the cost of a knife to make it out of, say, 440C, and give it a decent heat treatment? My impression is that the cost of the steel is a minor part of the expense involved in the production, so why not use a decent steel at least?
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Why does viagra spam exist? Because there are people (more than you'd think) who buy that garbage- if spamming wasn't profitable spammers wouldn't do it. Same with junky knives.

Why not use a decent steel? Because garbage steel, poorly heat-treated, is cheaper than decent steel and decent heat treat. And because it'll sell either way, so the less you spend to make the knife the more profit.

Note that reputable companies, that cater to customers who know better than to buy garbage, make it a point to always use quality materials. But reputable companies and non-junk-buying customers, make up less of the market than we might like.
 
bladefoolish said:
Why is it that once reputable knife companies start producing crap, and lessening their reputations?

I used to like Gerber, but most of the ones I would still own were made 15 years ago.
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ive said it before and i'll say it here not all gerbers are equal, i have 3 that were purchased in the last three years that are very well done.
1) Gerber Freeman folder, excellent albeit a little large
2) Gerber Hinderer Rescue, cool knife not really practical but:D
3) Mini fast draw, tough little AO knife:thumbup:
Gerber makes some junk but they fill a need in the big picture, alot of people look at me (and i'm sure you guys too) like i was crazy for paying $90 for a knife or $50 for a knife. Gerber fills those needs for those people who dont wanna drop more than $20 on a knife. Live and let live
There are far worse options than CS or gerber:D
ivan
 
Mebbe I'm just getting the old grit syndrome, but things ain't as good as they used to be. Every so often I still buy a vintage Gerber folder off ebay, as I (note, I said "I") find them to be better made than the more modern models.
 
But, to argue the reverse, I'm not sure that some $300.00 knives out there are THAT much better than what can be bought for $100.00. Okay, what I'm about to say will cause some folks here to want to pick up pointy rock and form a circle around me, but I have two of the 52-100 steel Swamp Rats (the Camp Tramp and the Howling Rat), and while both are REALLY GOOD knives I can't see paying $200+ for 'em (I got a good deal on both, didn't pay that much). Likewise, while Bark River's are great, they're (to me) priced at the top of what they're worth right now. And I've always thought TOPS were overpriced.
 
bladefoolish said:
But, to argue the reverse, I'm not sure that some $300.00 knives out there are THAT much better than what can be bought for $100.00. Okay, what I'm about to say will cause some folks here to want to pick up pointy rock and form a circle around me, but I have two of the 52-100 steel Swamp Rats (the Camp Tramp and the Howling Rat), and while both are REALLY GOOD knives I can't see paying $200+ for 'em (I got a good deal on both, didn't pay that much). Likewise, while Bark River's are great, they're (to me) priced at the top of what they're worth right now. And I've always thought TOPS were overpriced.
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value for money is not the only judge when buying something.

you know there are a ton of epiphone and squier guitars out there. most of them are owned by people who think the same way you do. "why should I pay 3.5 grand for a gibson custom shop?" or "why would would you buy a 2200 dollar relic when you can get a made in us fender for 1000? thats not value for money!" and to be frank I dont give a shit.

if you like your guitar then fine, but leave me alone and dont criticize that I dont want to play on your crappy guitar. maybe you think Im stupid for spending so much since my guitar isnt as much better as the difference in price, but Im happy and if I dont feel like Ive overpayed then why should I have to take flak for it from mr. frugal pants.

life is too short to worry about value for money. if you want something, get what you want, and if you cant afford it, dont buy a stop gap because youve just wasted your money. thats not very frugal or very smart.

in the end its the people who are making noise about the price of high end knives that are thinking about it while the people who ponied up the cash are enjoying them, and I think that says it all.
 
Why are once quality knife companies producing low end stuff now? Trying to compete with all the knives made in China and Taiwan? At least Benchmade uses the different classes to separate thei better stuff from the cheaper made products from the better stuff.
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How many companies can survive on a few dozen sales every quarter? You have to sell in the hundreds and thousands to just barely get-by.

They have to sell what customers want. Aside from us few serious knife-users & collectors, most people only want to pay for crap because they don't need a knife to last forever. Any knife that can do basic cutting & slicing is enough (realistically, this includes us knife collectors).

Blame Walmart as much as anything else.
 
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Fiskars bought Gerber in 1987(?) Now they are not even on my radar, the few Gerbers (post fiskars) I have owned were underwhelming to say the least.

Cold Steel has always been a marketing firm, not a knife manufacturer. If their quality is going down, that just means they are using lesser quality components and demanding less of the manufacturers. I am sure their profits are up.

Simple answer is educate oneself and buy quality items. All the low end junk is marketed to the unknowing masses, not educated enthusiasts.
 
bladefoolish said:
But, to argue the reverse, I'm not sure that some $300.00 knives out there are THAT much better than what can be bought for $100.00. Okay, what I'm about to say will cause some folks here to want to pick up pointy rock and form a circle around me, but I have two of the 52-100 steel Swamp Rats (the Camp Tramp and the Howling Rat), and while both are REALLY GOOD knives I can't see paying $200+ for 'em (I got a good deal on both, didn't pay that much). Likewise, while Bark River's are great, they're (to me) priced at the top of what they're worth right now. And I've always thought TOPS were overpriced.
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I think I can understand what you're saying. I own 4 Swamprats (just bought a 5th but don't have it yet), and only paid "retail" for 2 of them. The others I picked up off the exchange, sometimes a bit marked up. I also own a bunch of Moras. I own a ZT folder, and a couple of upscale Kershaws (G10, S30v) but I also own a bunch of Opinels.

Are the Swamprats and Kershaws better? Oh, yes. Is my Ratmandu 20x better than my 780? No. But the price/quality curve isn't linear. Every incremental increase in quality costs more than the previous one. My Moras and Opinels are great and perfectly functional, but I'm also glad to have paid the premium for my higher end knives. Where you're most comfortable on the price/quality or price/performance curve is up to you.

The type of person I rag on is someone who doesn't even know enough to be aware that a price/performance curve EXISTS. I mock the people who say "it's all the same" and then buy hopelessly useless crap. And then do it again when their whatever breaks the first time they try to use it. People who buy pot metal knives aren't "budget conscious smart shoppers", they're idiots. If they were smart shoppers, they'd buy Opinels and Moras.
 
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GregY said:
I think I can understand what you're saying. I own 4 Swamprats (just bought a 5th but don't have it yet), and only paid "retail" for 2 of them. The others I picked up off the exchange, sometimes a bit marked up. I also own a bunch of Moras. I own a ZT folder, and a couple of upscale Kershaws (G10, S30v) but I also own a bunch of Opinels.

Are the Swamprats and Kershaws better? Oh, yes. Is my Ratmandu 20x better than my 780? No. But the price/quality curve isn't linear. Every incremental increase in quality costs more than the previous one. My Moras and Opinels are great and perfectly functional, but I'm also glad to have paid the premium for my higher end knives. Where you're most comfortable on the price/quality or price/performance curve is up to you.

The type of person I rag on is someone who doesn't even know enough to be aware that a price/performance curve EXISTS. I mock the people who say "it's all the same" and then buy hopelessly useless crap. And then do it again when they're whatever breaks the first time they try to use it. People who buy pot metal knives aren't "budget conscious smart shoppers", they're idiots. If they were smart shoppers, they'd buy Opinels and Moras.
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visual representation
 
I think for a lot of people, crap is what works. Most people that buy those knives buy them for camping or work etc. If its for work, they beat the crap out of it or lose it or both. Also, they will never sharpen it and just treat the thing like the garbage it is. If you gave them a 300 dollar folder, in a few weeks it would have a broken tip, be dull, chipped or lost. The 300 doller folder would have been a waste. For the guys that just use the thing camping--they are usually super softcore and probably just spread some mustard on a bun. A RC hardness of 35 would be enough for that so they tend t be happy with their crap knives.

Guys like us love our knives. We treat them with respect, and we care about the little details that are put into them. We care about locks, steel, handle materials etc. This all costs money but we find it worth it. But their also isnt a huge popuation that really enjoy knives. It is a nifty tool that we have grown to love but so many people see any knife like I see a butter knife. Its not the knife they see, its only the result of the knife.
 
I remember when CRKT used to offer the M16 line in ATS-34 along with a few others.
They were better built too.
Now the steel is AUdontknow. I like a lot of their designs but I don't like any of the materials they use in them.

There are many manufacturers out there to choose from though......plenty of choices for quality product.

mike
 
It is very simple. If people would buy only USA made knives the demand would go down for the cheap made crap. I will not buy a knife that is not made in USA. I will not buy a Spyderco that is not made in USA which really limits my Spyderco collection. I love Kershaws but all of mine are made in USA. As long as people keep buying it they will keep making it. We are at a crossroad and we have to buy everything we can made in USA. If we love this country.
 
I consider myself a user, not a collector. However, I make exceptions for knives made of special steels, which I do collect. I'm interested in exotic / super steels, probably because it's somewhat related to my job.

That being said, I think knife nuts here have a tendency to scoff at cheap steels even though they're entirely workable. Mora, Victorinox, and most of Buck & Leatherman products are made of relatively soft steel. Before I knew of S30V, S110V, VG-10, and ZDP-189, I was perfectly happy with Victorinox's Inox, and Leatherman's 420HC. Not too long ago I got me a Case Sodbuster Jr. and the blade can produce decent edge even though it's definitely not super steel. For most applications I'm quite happy with those cheaper knives, and I don't feel inadequate for carrying non-super steel blades.

For the average guy who uses his pocket knife maybe once a week, cheap knives made of cheap steel is sufficient. Therefore the market for cheap knives is large, far larger than the market for expensive ones. You can say what you want about Gerber, but they're selling a whole lot of knives through Target & Walmart.
 
I don't understand the bitterness. I can go to one store and buy plastic picnic utensils or go to another and buy silver dinnerware or order a titanium knife - fork - spoon from A.G.Russell. You can buy a Mercedes or a Chevy or a Yugo.

There are products at every level for the buying public. Be happy there are mid and high end knives to satisfy us and don't begrudge the masses their cheapies. They really don't need and certainly don't want better, but that doesn't mean there are fewer good knives for us.
 
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