Why is it . . .

I don't necessarily scoff at cheap knives -- as I've mentioned before, I've bought several of the Smith & Wesson slipjoints that I stick in my vehicles and use for rough work; when I'm up in PA my usual EDC around the property is an old CRKT Prowler, with the AUS6 blade. Am I thrilled with the performace of these knives? No, but they are suitable for what I'm using them for.

The original point of this thread was to lament the drop in quality of companies who used to produce relative high-end knives. I thought the Cold Steel Outsdoorsman, and especially the mini-Outdoorsman and mini-California drop points were very well designed knives, and reasonable well made. The original Hai Honcho had some of the best serrations around; it was re-designed and had a sucky serrated blade.

All of the gerber stuff I remember from about 20 years ago was well designed, made of decent steel, and fairly high manufacturing standards.

Marbles? Sigh. I really, really liked Marbles stuff, especially either (1) vintage; or (2) from the Mike Stewart era. Now I don't see them making anything equal to their older top-end stuff, and the bottom end has gotten lower quality.

(All of this is my opinion, of course)

I agree with what several have said here, that the higher end knives dont' have enough of a market share to support most production knife companies. But it also seems to me that it's not just that some -- most --- companies are adding lower-end products, but they are also lessening the overall quality of all of their products.
 
"I don't understand the bitterness. "

I don't think I'm bitter, just irriated. Dammit, these are brands I once respected; now I would hesitate before buying anything by these companies.
 
back in the early 70's Buck and Gerber lock backs ruled. They shared the prime market for someone looking for a "good" knife. They had no competition like they do now, just look at the myriad of quality knife companies and their line up today...very competitive. Back then you paid approx. 30.00 - 35.00 for a Buck or Gerber. Thats about what 150.00 - 175.00 would buy today. Inflation. Buck could not sell their 110 for that price today, so to stay competitive and remain in business they have to take short cuts. Its all relative. Just my .02, for what little its worth:D
 
bladefoolish said:
"I don't understand the bitterness. "

I don't think I'm bitter, just irriated. Dammit, these are brands I once respected; now I would hesitate before buying anything by these companies.
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This happens fairly frequently to companies whose business decisions are made by accountants.

The common factors in the decline seem to be a quest for increased market share through diving down market, decreased quality throughout the entire product line to cut costs, flashier design, emphasis on appearance over substance, newly aggressive marketing that attempts to leverage an established brand but increasingly winds up just papering over cracks in the facade.... because in the short run sales may increase but customer satisfaction and brand loyalty go down, the reputation of the brand no longer commands a price premium... And the C Class. (Damn! Outer voice! Outer voice!)
 
Keep in mind also that many of these companies that you think aren't making knives as good as they used to aren't actually making knives at all. Gerber and Marbles for example no longer exist as independent, self-directed entities. They closed, sold off assets and names, and are now divisions of those who bought them out.
 
brand loyalty probably isn't as important these days for the knifenut customer who is well informed and knows what to look for in any given product.
we're all on the look out for more bang for the buck, super deals, everyday low prices that it makes no sense to spent any more than necessary just to have a "fix" in so far as the hobby goes until the next craving comes along.
there are probably growing legions of new knife geeks who are more fad driven than there are matured quality driven customers.
thus i wonder just how many "true user" specs-wizard knifenuts there are, who actually wear out every single purchased product; who then move up higher on the specs chain just to push the products using capabilities to the very edge.
it's a sure thing that consumers are forever spoilt with far too many choices unlike the old days where cutlery concerns kept producing the same basic classic models for as long as there was no competition with new innovations.
the market is saturated with manufacturers unable to focus on just high end quality products alone. the sales model is probably also to be blamed for pushing retailers to take on stock that outsizes actual demand. in the end it's all about the day's takings isn't it? many on lookers but too few takers for the expensive delux models.
 
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A company grows up and dies out just like a person or an animal.
It is a sad thing to see a company being dull once it was brilliant but it's just the way it is.
 
Greed. They recognize that their name has value and 'recognition' and then they cash-in ... I of course walk the other way. Look at companies like Eddie Bauer. They used to make the best mountaineering/outdoor apparel on earth, some of the most foreboding peaks on earth were knocked-off in their gear, now they're a "GAP for older folks." Victorinox - they now make cologne and cheap wheelie luggage - WTF. As far as I'm concerned, be true to your roots, just b/c 'your' competition is slapping their 'brand' on cheap Chinese crap they find in some manufacturing catalog, doesn't mean you have to. Look at SureFire: still made in the USA ... and people RUN, and line-up to pay $200+ for a flashlight. Selling-out doesn't pay long-term, it devalues your brand.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I don't understand the bitterness. I can go to one store and buy plastic picnic utensils or go to another and buy silver dinnerware or order a titanium knife - fork - spoon from A.G.Russell. You can buy a Mercedes or a Chevy or a Yugo.

There are products at every level for the buying public. Be happy there are mid and high end knives to satisfy us and don't begrudge the masses their cheapies. They really don't need and certainly don't want better, but that doesn't mean there are fewer good knives for us.
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Ummm.....

You know that if anyone else but you said that you would be blasted to pieces, right?

I don't understand the intolerance, either. So someone wants to carry a less expensive knife; why is it anyone else's business? Aren't we all big boys? Don't we get to make our own choices?

It is hard to believe, but some of the absolute darling knives of this forum that are worshiped on a daily basis are viewed on other forums as being just "pretty good". I know that a few here don't like outside opinions, but they are indeed out there.

I can liken this to my own experience as a custom cabinet maker. When I go to a client's house for a consult, I often have to endure them showing me their "workshop".

All the crappy tools are well represented: Craftsman, Porter Cable, DeWalt, etc. Like the knife makers, each one of those companies sell a model or two that are pretty good, but not great. But they are affordable, and made to be used by a guy that wants to feel like he bought something better than Harbor Freight.

I am careful to remark that I am impressed. I keep in mind that these tools represent something to this man, and that he isn't as serious as I am about doing fine woodworking. In some cases, some of these fellows bought what they could afford. In many cases, they thought the tools were quality gear.

A good example: For finishing, I was in a customer's "shop" and he showed me his HVLP delivery system. He paid $129 for his unit and was made in China. Mine will run rings around his, but cost $1600 (but made in the USA.) He has done some nice finishing work, and is pleased with his equipment and its output. It was a good match for him and his needs.

Yet, I never felt any urge to sneer at him, belittle him or try to correct his buying habits.

I face the same thing with hand tools. I hate cheap, crappy chisels. They are paint can openers. I don't like cheap cordless drills, they are a total waste of my time. I don't even like cheap hammers. I can't stand any router that cost less than $150, and hate any extension cord that is less than 12 ga.

Yet I see that stuff all the time and it doesn't bother me as long as it isn't in my tool box.

One mans ceiling is another man's floor. Others might just feel the same way about your car, your tools, your house, your guns, your fishing equipment and anything else you purchase that isn't top of the line.

Just go to the woodturning forums and announce you have Sears turning tools. Go to WoodCentral and tell them you have a Harbor Freight anything. Go to the BBQ forums and tell them how much you love your <$250 pit.

You will see exactly the same intolerant snobbery, but in those venues the shoe might be on the other foot.

I love it... an elitist hierarchy of knives.

I would like to join in establishing a benchmark for EDC steels. I carry a Kershaw Shallot S110v. In the new order, anything less than S90 as a steel will be considered total crap. Who's game?

I know that means that I will have to hang my head in shame when I carry my Benchmade Apparition (154cm and $125) because the steel isn't quite the high grade I need to make snuff. I guess the old 4 star Pumas would have to go away (crap... I have 4 of them... each Rockwell factory certified as minimum "R58") as well as a couple of Bucks and my 25+ year old Schrades.

And I promise I will wear a baseball cap and large sunglasses if I happen to put my impulse buy CRKT Drifter in my pocket. It is pretty spiffy, but it isn't made here nor is the steel good enough.

So who's with me? Anyone want to start a S90 or S110V only club? Seems like it would have a place here on this forum.

Robert
 
"I don't understand the intolerance, either. So someone wants to carry a less expensive knife; why is it anyone else's business? Aren't we all big boys? Don't we get to make our own choices?"

Sure you get a choice. But, sometimes crap is crap.
 
Take a few economics and marketing classes, or read a few contemporary business books and you will understand the incentives. It sucks, but it is business.

There are all kinds of funny stories involving similar topics. When black and Decker first started producing power tools nobody bought them. Then they added three pounds of dead weight to their power drills and they sold like crazy. The added weight did nothing for the tools performance, but consumers were sold, and liked the "heavy duty feel" of an extra three pounds of dead weight (not knowing it added nothing to quality/performance).

Another example is of Gibson guitars. They lowered their price to under $400 on a model that was identical in quality/ performance to the $1000 Gibsons (fret board, pick-ups, and all). They did not sell very well for some reason. then they decided to increase the price of this sub $400 guitar to over $700 and the guitars sold like crazy.

It just goes to show you that business is business and combined with uninformed consumers you will not have an efficient marketplace.

Hence, all the junk out there.
 
Of course a cheap knife does serve as a superior tool in cases where all you need is a "Lemon." I have been driving a 20 year old oldsmobile for years and it gets the job done every time (knock knock). But there will always be demand for quality products so there is really no need to worry about companies making crap. It can be disheartening sometimes though.
 
blackfeetmageet said:
Another example is of Gibson guitars. They lowered their price to under $400 on a model that was identical in quality/ performance to the $1000 Gibsons (fret board, pick-ups, and all). They did not sell very well for some reason. then they decided to increase the price of this sub $400 guitar to over $700 and the guitars sold like crazy.
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I would be VERY interested to know specifics about this case.

Gibson isnt that level of prestige and they havent been in most of our life times; That boat sailed in 1969. If it was collings or possibly paul reed smith (well prs back in the 80s or 90s) then I could believe it. But gibson is the brand all the kids want and the sucess of epiphone, the les paul studio, and even the gibson sg are proof enough that cheap + gibson = sales.

Although people at guitar center (lol) say all the time 7lb strats feel like "toys" compared to some monstrous 13lb les paul, even though the 50s les pauls weighed 9lbs or less because they were made from honduran mahogany (which is now restricted) which was signifigantly less dense than the budget grade crap they use now so they can churn out hundreds of thousands of guitars a year.

The difference between gibson and something like black and decker is that gibson quality control is so epicly bad they let a good guitar get through now and then.

btw lets not play the econ 101 games. basic economics is extremely ill equipped to describe a niche within a niche market.
 
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Well, a "niche" is a term in Marketing, not Economics. Of course Econ is not gonna cut it. :D

I think all knives sold for about $50 and above serve a niche market; the knife nut market.
 
Sep said:
Well, a "niche" is a term in Marketing, not Economics. Of course Econ is not gonna cut it. :D

I think all knives sold for about $50 and above serve a niche market; the knife nut market.
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yes well I was attempting to frame it in a light that non economics majors would get.

and you are right in one regard, this is a marketing issue more than economics one, although a person such as myself who is economics focused will view it under the veil of micro economics instead of a marketing definition which is based on focus groups and prices of close substitutes rather than forcasting or mark up.
 
"It" is because people have lost their way.

The focus used to be on quality, and now it is on cheapness. We are told that a product designed around quality parameters is aimed at a niche market... so there you go.
 
We should petition the accounting dept. at Gerber to do a sprint run of some high quality folders once a year and sell them on the exchange in order to uphold their proud past, and for basic nostalgia. Maybe they could hire someone as a consultant contract out some Seki production house . Hell if they produced the Hinderer copy with Ti and M4 it might relieve the market and I could get an XM-18.
 
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