why is the DOZIER D2 so cheap if it's - one of - best steel on the market ???

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radu1976

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As I read about some types of steel, I came to the conclusion that the DOZIER D2 overtakes both ZDP-189 and S30V as we talking about holding the edge ...
Then, why is so cheap ?A made in JAPAN KA-BAR DOZIER D2 ...less than 50$ ...while a VG-10 SPYDERCO is 100$ , an S30V SPYDERCO and BENCHMADE are 150-200$...no talking about the ZDP-189 knives...why the KA-BAR is 3-4 times cheaper when it has the best steel ?
I can assume that the steel is not everything for a knife ...but 3-4 times cheaper than an inferior steel blade knife ...well, that's very surprising for me...as a newbie :)
 
the cost of the knife is based on a whole lot more than the cost of the blade steel.

heck, turn a few of your examples on their heads, compare a VG-10 spyderco like an endura to a D2 Benchmade like a 710.


whether D2 is the best steel or not is open to a lot of debate.
 
These are Dozier knives. Bob Dozier made and heat treated them.
http://www.agrussell.com/search.asp?ss=dozier&x=12&y=4
The Kabar knives are made by Kabar using a Dozier design. The secret is the Bob Dozier heat treat. He is undoubtedly one of the best if not the best at working with D2. Not to mention the excellent fit and finish of his knives. There is really very little comparison between a Dozier made knife and a Kabar made Dozier design. They may or may not look alike, but that is it.
 
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1) Cost of materials is a very small part of the knife. So if you are querying based on the price of a couple of knives, you need to look beyond the cost of the steel.

2) If you are just asking why D2 steel is less expensive than VG10:
D2 is tool steel. Lots of people use it for a lotta things. That means large batches of steel and economies of scale. D2 is made by many companies. It is an AISI standard composition that anyone can make.

VG10 is specifically a cutlery steel. Smaller market. Means smaller steel batches. Means more expensive. VG10 is only made by one maker. It is a proprietary alloy. ADD: Folks that sell standard compositions have to temper their prices by looking at what the competition is charging. Folks that sell proprietary stuff get to charge whatever the market will bear.
 
The KaBar Dozier knives in D2, and of course Dozier's knives, are so good because of the heat treat. I'm assuming KaBar used a similar heat treat to Bob, and so I'm assuming the D2 in the knives are equally good.
 
D2 is certainly more plentiful but from everything I have read and seen Bob Doziers' D2 heat treat is unique. His name and methods are legendary. I see it as a cost of quality, not availability. I can see Bob endorsing designs and giving advice, but I really can't see him giving up his heat treating methods to a production company.
 
Brutus013 said:
The KaBar Dozier knives in D2, and of course Dozier's knives, are so good because of the heat treat. I'm assuming KaBar used a similar heat treat to Bob, and so I'm assuming the D2 in the knives are equally good.
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i wouldn't assume that.

however, even dozier's knives from his shop tend to be less pricey than other customs or midtechs of equal size/fit/finish/materials.

i inquired about this, and from what i remember, he keeps his overhead relatively low, and likes his knives to find their way to users.
 
While Kabar's Doziers are good and very likely worthy of Dozier name (I talked to Bob and he says he carries a small fixed blade from his own shop and a Kabar Dozier folder!) I wouldn't say they are better than more expensive folders but they are pretty nice and worth the money.

You do get a good bit more, construction-wise, fit and finish, etc. with the higher end Spydercos and Benchmades and the like, but yes, D2 is a great steel. However, D2 is not the be-all end-all of all steels! There are pros and cons to using all sorts of steel which is why we see VG-10 and S30V and 3V and 154cm.
 
Bob also has some very expensive knives. His folders certainly aren't cheap, and this may help pay the bills. His working fixed blades are a bargain, though.

Back to the original question, a Ka-Bar Dozier is not a Dozier. The blade and handle are thin and lightweight. I would think Bob helped Ka-Bar work out the proper heat treat, which would not be the same as for his thicker, heavier blades.

The quality control is very good. Ka-Bar may be holding the price down to help sales. They do have quite a few variations. The ones I got were excellent users.
 
true, his folders have always been at the upper end price wise. and his loveless inspired knives aren't cheap.

his "regular" series hunting and military knives are a bargain, relatively speaking.
 
SOLEIL said:
D2 is certainly more plentiful but from everything I have read and seen Bob Doziers' D2 heat treat is unique. His name and methods are legendary. I see it as a cost of quality, not availability. I can see Bob endorsing designs and giving advice, but I really can't see him giving up his heat treating methods to a production company.
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Whatever bob does can't be better than friction forging (DiamondBlade knives).
 
Esav Benyamin said:
How would you know this?
Have you used their knives or his?
Did you, perhaps, read their ad copy?

Steel, heat treat, edge geometry, manufacturing quality ...
Click to expand...
How would you know it? :)
Mostly by reading the copy (both out of my price range); and it is convincing (they use catra machines, even have charts of the results, and video).
I've got no reason to doubt their claims regarding edge durability and toughness any more than I would Bob's legendary heat treating methods.
Both use D2 steel, Bobs knives are tempered to 60-61 Rc.,
diamondblades knives to 65-68 (spine 42-45).
I've also read up on Polycrystalline cubic boron nitride
and Friction stir welding. The diamondblade people didn't invent the technology, they just applied it to knife edge, and someone should have done so sooner (like in December 1991, when it was invented/proven).

Goddard Traditional Hunter designed by Wayne Goddard, Friction Forged® D2 High Carbon Tool Steel, Spine Rc Hardness 42-45,
Blade Rc Hardness 65-68, 4.5º wedge grind with a 16-18º sharpened bevel...
the heat-treat is all machine.
 
just10minreader said:
Whatever bob does can't be better than friction forging (DiamondBlade knives).
Click to expand...


You might want to rephrase that to eliminate the absolute. Try, "I don't think it is..." instead of "Can't be." Especially if you have no direct knowledge by trying both yourself.

Nozh2002 has tested both. In his tests for edge retention, the best blade he ever tested was a Bob Dozier blade. And he tested DiamondBlade as well. Whether that is definitive or not is not possible for me to say. I have tested neither.
 
But it does indicate that theoretical absolutes pronounced by someone with no practical experience are less than convincing.

Steel, heat treat, edge geometry, manufacturing quality ...
 
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