Why is there such a dislike of 440c?!?!?

allen456

allen456

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So, I have been tossing this question around for a while now. Why are so many people afraid of/or dislike 440c?? In my opinion, it is truly a great steel, and many other knifemakers voice for it too, but avoid using it do to the unwanted feeling of the masses. I know the horror stories of when 440 stainless came out years ago and the edge retention was nothing to right home about. From what I have read, 440c has more carbon than the tried and true 1095, yet also has the stainless properties. Also, when you compare the properties of ats34 to 440c, they are almost identical.

Just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts. I really like 440c personally and will continue to make knives from it, knowing the piece will be passed down through the generations! Thank you for your input!
 
It was the shit in the 70's.

I think mostly it is passe. I think it is still a good steel - but there are better for similar prices that are easier to sharpen and hold a better edge.

CPM 154 - for instance.

TF
 
Depends on who's making it. I own several Entrek knives, all in 440C, and Ray Ennis has the heat treat of the knife down to a science. Most well behaved 440C I've ever seen. I think there are some steel snobs, of course, but it's really less a case of dislike and more of peoples natural tendency to seek better and better.
 
Most people wouldnt know 440c from ats34 from 154cm truth be told if it wasnt etched on the blade. But in this day and age of everyone being a "Cutlery Expert" they seem to think they do. In a Normal or not so normal wilderness day of knife use properly heat treated 440c will perform right along with most if not all high alloy based cutlery steels. Skinning, carving, batoning, triming your nails, slicing salami etc. 440c will do it all and do it well. But in todays knife culture if your not sporting the next great hypnotic super steel your seen as not being in the know. Also in one post the writter wrote " peoples natural tendency to seek better and better" And we see how that usually worked out, ie....obama
 
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Street Samurai1978 said:
Depends on who's making it. I own several Entrek knives, all in 440C, and Ray Ennis has the heat treat of the knife down to a science. Most well behaved 440C I've ever seen. I think there are some steel snobs, of course, but it's really less a case of dislike and more of peoples natural tendency to seek better and better.
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I'll second this, my Entrek Javalina is a fantastic knife.
 
I think it got attached to the cheaper '440' stamped stuff. You know the "GENUINE THROWING KNIVES" for 9 dollars in a crappy nylon sheath. They all got '440' right down there on the painted on blade.
 
Thank you for all of the comments so far. I am by no means any type of expert, just learning as I go. Let's open the thread a little further, not only keep the thoughts flowing on the stigma around 440c, but, also am I in a sense shooting myself in the foot by sticking with it.
 
440-C is a great steel, that is way too often confused with whatever steel has been used in cheap imported junk marked "440"'.

n2s
 
Many people mistakenly associate 440c with poorly heat treated 440a found in cheap knives. Canal Street Cutlery does a great job with 440c.
 
solid4ever said:
I think it got attached to the cheaper '440' stamped stuff. You know the "GENUINE THROWING KNIVES" for 9 dollars in a crappy nylon sheath. They all got '440' right down there on the painted on blade.
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I'm kinda in that mind set when I see 440-any kind being used. It seems (to me) that it's a cheap steel used by mass production companies who produce a crappy quick mart counter knife .. aka lesser quality Chinese made knock off products. Not saying in any way that anyone who uses 440-anykind is making a lesser quality product, but if you had a choice .. then why use something that has a negative connotations attached to it?
 
I think that you'd be shooting yourself in the foot my sticking with it. People don't want a "good steel" they want the newest best-est super steel weather it's better or not. Fad steels sell.
 
It is a bit like 12C27 in Europe.. Everyone wants new and improved, not old and proven through years of use.

For most users edge stability and decent wear resistance would probably be better than extreme wear resistance and a higher chance of chipping on thinner edges.
 
I think most of the above comments are pretty much spot on with regards to 440c. When it came out in production knives such as Buck, Case, etc. the heat treat was very inconsistent. Most of the Buck knives were so hard it took days to sharpen on a stone. Case was soft and wouldn't hold an edge. I owned many a Case and Buck during those times and cussed both. The large manufacturers just wanted product out there and didn't pay attention to proper heat treat. Same time, the really cheap steels showed up from Asia marked "440c" and probably were true mystery steel. That's how it got the bad reputation. Properly heat treated 440c is as good a knife steel as any of the high carbons and pretty close to the true stainless. Second aspect is the markets trend in what's the"best" knife steel. Ten to twelve years ago 1095 and 01 were the hot properties seen in the market. Next came 5160, then W1, CPM154, ATS34, SV30, etc., etc. All great blade steels with one caveat-properly done heat treat.
 
solid4ever said:
I think it got attached to the cheaper '440' stamped stuff. You know the "GENUINE THROWING KNIVES" for 9 dollars in a crappy nylon sheath. They all got '440' right down there on the painted on blade.
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not2sharp said:
440-C is a great steel, that is way too often confused with whatever steel has been used in cheap imported junk marked "440"'.

n2s
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bonafide said:
I'm kinda in that mind set when I see 440-any kind being used. It seems (to me) that it's a cheap steel used by mass production companies who produce a crappy quick mart counter knife .. aka lesser quality Chinese made knock off products. Not saying in any way that anyone who uses 440-anykind is making a lesser quality product, but if you had a choice .. then why use something that has a negative connotations attached to it?
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Chris Pierce said:
I think that you'd be shooting yourself in the foot my sticking with it. People don't want a "good steel" they want the newest best-est super steel weather it's better or not. Fad steels sell.
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Looks like you got your answers. Really it has nothing to do with the steel, and is simply a question of whats hot and whats not.
 
Unseasonably warm day, and I had some luck fishing. So lucky me, I got to whip out ye olde fillet knife (not so old, really), a Knives of Alaska Steelheader (maybe one day it'll be an F2). As always, it takes a great edge easily, and works like an extension of my hand. Because of this thread, I checked the steel. Yep, 440c. Great steel for the job.
 
I'm not keen on 440C (gotta love a good pun!) for two reasons. First, the less-reasonable cause: one of my first two folding knives was a SOG with 440A. While it would sharpen easily and well, it would literally go dull without even being used; a truly atrocious blade steel. The '440' attached to it created a bad impression in me of that family of stainless steels.
That's the less-reasonable cause of my distaste for 440C. The second reason is my stepdad's old Griptilian in 440C. The knife's from a reputable company that presumably does a decent job of heat-treating its alloys. The Griptilian's edge is only so-so for edge-holding, and it will only get so sharp. In those regards, it seems about equal to my Ontario RAT-1 in AUS8. While that knife will sharpen up well and easily, it only holds an edge for so long. The difference between the two knives was around $50, for pretty equal performance.
 
RRaconteur said:
Unseasonably warm day, and I had some luck fishing. So lucky me, I got to whip out ye olde fillet knife (not so old, really), a Knives of Alaska Steelheader (maybe one day it'll be an F2). As always, it takes a great edge easily, and works like an extension of my hand. Because of this thread, I checked the steel. Yep, 440c. Great steel for the job.
Click to expand...

Trout Tamer said:
I'm not keen on 440C (gotta love a good pun!) for two reasons. First, the less-reasonable cause: one of my first two folding knives was a SOG with 440A. While it would sharpen easily and well, it would literally go dull without even being used; a truly atrocious blade steel. The '440' attached to it created a bad impression in me of that family of stainless steels.
That's the less-reasonable cause of my distaste for 440C. The second reason is my stepdad's old Griptilian in 440C. The knife's from a reputable company that presumably does a decent job of heat-treating its alloys. The Griptilian's edge is only so-so for edge-holding, and it will only get so sharp. In those regards, it seems about equal to my Ontario RAT-1 in AUS8. While that knife will sharpen up well and easily, it only holds an edge for so long. The difference between the two knives was around $50, for pretty equal performance.
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zachtateknives said:
I like to use 440c, whenever someone tells me its a junk steel I point them to Jay Fisher...
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These three posts, right in a row, sum up this whole debate. Here you have someone with a properly ht'd 440c knife that is performing outstanding. Then you have the honest admittance from someone of exactly the reason it doesn't sell well. And finally someone who truly loves and uses the steel and learned from a master at the top of the business. He's not the only one either. All my maker friends from Ky who learned from Gil Hibben use it almost exclusively. Cliff Findley also runs a farm and uses his 440c day in and out and swears by it. The truth is 440C is an excellent blade steel. Not only that, its the easiest SS to grind that I've ever used, and it is easy to finish too. Its unfortunate, but I've had trouble selling it.
 
Just look a little closer to home at what Scott Davidson does with 440C. Once again, he knows how to deal with it. Sadly, all this is a moot point, due to the bad reputation and the steel trends having long past it by.
 
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