Why is tool steel not used for chef's knives?

[Dr. Rayeye]

I think you are mixing up two different worlds. One is the "Cutlery Industry" as exemplified by factory production, CAD systems, laser citting, Mass production, etc etc. These are the Shuns, Globals, Zwillings, Wustoffs, Sabatiers and every label out of Yangjiang.
The other is the small shop artisan hand forged traditional makers. Some have histories going back hundreds of years and the atelier is handed down through msny generations from Master to Apprentice. They aren't in the game to compete in the Cutlery Industry..
This is no different than people who prefer Factory Production or Custom knives.
The Japanese kitchen knife "Inudustry" as seen in Sakai, Tsubame-Sanjo,Seki is just fine. The Artisans are a different story as fewer and fewer young people want to put in the long time and effort to learn under a Master, and very often when the Master retires or passes away, the shop dissappears as well.

There will always be a place for handmade, custom knives--all over the world--and there clearly are such masters in Japan, but there are plenty of limited production suppliers that can benefit--maybe even must benefit--from improvements in the process, and available materials without producing throwback products.

Shun is the best example of a product line that has wed advances in technology to cultural fusion--and much of it can be done on a smaller scale. The Shun dual core is not a simple mass production product--and may well have some of those artisan "masters" doing some of the finishing work. Recent high end offerings based on this dual core technology are much like the offerings of an artisan master. For example, the Shun Engetsu line:

https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt/-kai-shun-engetsu-ta-0702-limited-edition-santoku.htm

 

[KenHash]

There will always be a place for handmade, custom knives--all over the world--and there clearly are such masters in Japan, but there are plenty of limited production suppliers that can benefit--maybe even must benefit--from improvements in the process, and available materials without producing throwback products.

Shun is the best example of a product line that has wed advances in technology to cultural fusion--and much of it can be done on a smaller scale. The Shun dual core is not a simple mass production product--and may well have some of those artisan "masters" doing some of the finishing work. Recent high end offerings based on this dual core technology are much like the offerings of an artisan master. For example, the Shun Engetsu line:

https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt/-kai-shun-engetsu-ta-0702-limited-edition-santoku.htm

You are absolutely correct regarding Shun's production. Factoy knives made in Seki, where there is a long history of blade making, tend to have more human hands-on involvement in the production. Zwillig opened a factory in Seki in I believe 2002/3 to make their Miyabi line and they have stated that although they manufacture kitchen knives in Germany, China and Japan, the ones made in Seki have 80% human intervetion in the manufacturing process,

 

[Square_peg]

I have no idea of the hardness of this knife. It just looks good, but I don't think it is all that hard.

I wouldn't buy any knife with a blade that was purposely distressed to make it look 'hand forged'. No smith worth his salt would let a knife out of the shop looking like that. And since I recognize that it is a gimmick I would avoid the knife.

 

[mentalknife]

I wouldn't buy any knife with a blade that was purposely distressed to make it look 'hand forged'. No smith worth his salt would let a knife out of the shop looking like that. I since I recognize that it is a gimmick I would avoid the knife.

That's a silly and frankly obtuse opinion on many levels. I think you're in for a rude awakening when you learn how so many of these over hyped and over priced so called artisan knives that are shamelessly sold in consumer markets like North America and Western Europe as "hand forged works of art" to unsuspecting people are actually made. Often the only effective difference between the two is the factory knives tends to have much higher level of fit and finish, are generally better value, have actual quality controls, have tighter manufacturing tolerances, and have warranty support. If machine hammer marks offends you, I wonder if the often intentionally exaggerated distal tapers or other aspects of the lower volume items also offends you? Do you think these makers intentionally grind the blade roads so sloppy to hide the fact that the knife was made from a pre-lamined sheet of steel that they stamped out? Have you seen the mega popular knives of say Kurosaki? They're tarted up to the moon. All of that is cosmetic. Also If you buy a blemished factory second from a brand like that, you'll know it. Unlike the many Japanese knife dealers who buy a box of seconds and sell them as pristine units. Do customers even know? Probably not because they're well trained to expect poor fit and finish when purchasing such items. "Oh yeah, that massive scratch on the side? That's normal, are you familiar with so and sos work? Oh yea that 1 mm gouge in the spine? No biggie." The hype and hipster attitudes around vastly over rated and honestly stagnant Japanese knife making is out of control. And I say this as a person that owns a many thousands of dollars of such knives.

If you want a handmade knife, I would honestly strongly suggest people find smaller knife makers closer to home. There are a lot of very talented people making knives, either forging or stock removal, in the US and Europe, and a lot of them doing way more interesting and innovative things than anything I've seen come out of Japan in a long time. Also their prices are much much more down to earth unless they're already prominent like say Devin Thomas or Bob Kramer for instance.

 

[Square_peg]

If machine hammer marks offends you,

lol

Those marks have nothing to do with manufacturing a knife and everything to do with selling a knife.

 

[mentalknife]

lol

Those marks have nothing to do with manufacturing a knife and everything to do with selling a knife.

Right. I said that also. It's purely aesthetic. Like Damascus cladding. In Japanese knife making it's called tsuchime which basically means hammered. It's one of many established "finishes" that are common in Japanese knife making.. KAI even have a page on their site explaining this: https://shun.kaiusa.com/damascus-tsuchime-san-mai-edge

The hammering finish on these factory knives are typically done by machine template, rather than by hand like on the lower volume items. The lower volume items are typically hand hammered, also typically hand ground, usually on belt grinder though there are some guys even at the lower price points doing it on stones. You just have to really know what you're getting and who to get it from if you want to get in Japanese knives. There are definitely a lot of fantastic lower volume Japanese knives at every price level consumers just need to know whats what. That's my opinion.

 

[Square_peg]

To answer your question tho, stainlessness is very important in production kitchen knives, but right up there with that is user serviceability which means sharpenability which means easily able to sharpened by end users with normal equipment, which means whetstones which means aluminum oxide, which means you can forget any vanadium dominant tool steels or their stainless equivalents/versions.

There’s also shelf appeal and wanting to avoid returns. Some people will buy a high carbon knife without understanding that it will darken over time and rust if uncared for. Both the retailer and manufacturer want to avoid returns.

 

[vltor17]

Because production kitchen knives need to be stainless. Only traditional Japanese knives aren't and the only folks who actually use that outdated shit these days are hipsters. Because lets be real if you're gonna put up with some rusty high maintenance knife, it better bring something else to the table like incredible toughness and edge retention, but nah with outdated traditional Japanese stuff you get high maintenance and pretty low performance (we're talking about steel, right?), they're rusty, and brittle and have no edge retention, yet clearly so many people are convinced these over priced outdated stagnant hipster knives have magical properties. On the bright side, they generally have enough toughness for their intended purpose and the steel is quite hard, while being very very easy for even the most untalented end user to get very very sharp very very quickly. The good ones have excellent cutting geometry and are generally well balanced, with ergonomics melt into an extension of your body.

To answer your question tho, stainlessness is very important in production kitchen knives, but right up there with that is user serviceability which means sharpenability which means easily able to sharpened by end users with normal equipment, which means whetstones which means aluminum oxide, which means you can forget any vanadium dominant tool steels or their stainless equivalents/versions.

There are some tool steels that seem like they could be interesting choices for (CUSTOM) kitchen knives, but manufacturers generally know what they're doing, certainly more than end users do, and they use what they use for a reason... some of that is the burden of tradition, but much of it is modern and very intentional choices. High end production kitchen knives from Europe are still using 4116 steel, and that's fine. On the Japanese side they're using SG2 across the board, and as someone that has tested basically everything that exists that's about as "good" of a steel as you'd ever need in a kitchen knife. It's just as hard as all but the best carbon steels but it will stay sharp in use considerably longer but at the same time it doesn't have so much abrasion resistance that it can't easily be touched up on normal stones, it's properly stainless, and it's actually quite tough despite the hardness, more than tough enough for a kitchen knife. Anything past this point and you're hitting diminishing returns in terms of any potential "performance boost" you might get vs other compromises including price. This is what the whole industry is tooled up to use and I don't expect that to change any time soon. Much more important is everything else about the knife, ergonomics, cutting geometry, blade profile, fit and finish, quality control. Rather than choosing from say the 3 overpriced and terribly designed kitchen knives that actuallyexist on any level (though it would be hard to call them "production ") in some exotic steel like magancut or whatever, you've got literally hundreds of different knives to choose from made from this steel, by dozens of companies.

A production Kitchen? Ya, probably, your argument makes sense. For what most us are doing? You’ll get laughed out of here. None of my carbon knives are rusty. Anyone else’s knives rusted??!?

 

[mentalknife]

A production Kitchen? Ya, probably, your argument makes sense. For what most us are doing? You’ll get laughed out of here. None of my carbon knives are rusty. Anyone else’s knives rusted??!?

Production; as in mass produced, as in consumer products, as in products that actually exist at a significant scale, as in distinct from say custom knives or even smaller scale low production products which not without irony are often manufactured using nearly identical processes and procedures to their mass produced counterparts but often lacking relevant controls like warrnty support, distribution and supply chains, quality controls, authentication, etc.. Subject matter naivety and underdeveloped reading comprehension are no laughing as far as I'm concerned.

 

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[mqqn]

How I think people abuse kitchen knives
- leave it in the sink for a few days
- toss it in the dishwasher
- glass cutting boards
- cutting on granite counter tops
- bang it around with silverware

Low end stainless seems like the best solution for most.

Ouch. That made me squirm, but you are right....

 

[scdub]

Because production kitchen knives need to be stainless. Only traditional Japanese knives aren't and the only folks who actually use that outdated shit these days are hipsters. Because lets be real if you're gonna put up with some rusty high maintenance knife, it better bring something else to the table like incredible toughness and edge retention, but nah with outdated traditional Japanese stuff you get high maintenance and pretty low performance

Traditional Japanese knives are low performance outdated shit used by hipsters?

That's a silly and frankly obtuse opinion on many levels.

You must be fun at parties!

There are definitely a lot of fantastic lower volume Japanese knives at every price level consumers just need to know whats what.

Wait what?? Well - too bad they’re outdated shit tho… Am I right??

Subject matter naivety and underdeveloped reading comprehension are no laughing as far as I'm concerned.

Again - super fun at parties right?

BTW: No laughing MATTER is usually the way that’s written I think - but then maybe it’s just my shitty reading comprehension. Who knows?

 

[vltor17]

Production; as in mass produced, as in consumer products, as in products that actually exist at a significant scale, as in distinct from say custom knives or even smaller scale low production products which not without irony are often manufactured using nearly identical processes and procedures to their mass produced counterparts but often lacking relevant controls like warrnty support, distribution and supply chains, quality controls, authentication, etc.. Subject matter naivety and underdeveloped reading comprehension are no laughing as far as I'm concerned.

Translated as “STOP LIKING WHAT I DONT LIKE!!”

 

[scdub]

Also - just to stick up for simple/low alloy Japanese kitchen knife steels for a second…

From my limited understanding, these steels have very high carbon which allows for high hardness (while reducing toughness), and are alloyed primarily with tungsten (or virtually unalloyed) which allows for extremely fine grain structure. This combination, along with the fact that they are designed to cut soft foods on soft cutting boards, allows the blades to be ground very thin. The fine grain structure also allows for an extremely high level of sharpness compared to the vast majority of “super steels”. This is the most important and sought after attribute in Japanese cooking, so it’s not surprising to me that even their “cheap” Hitachi white and blue steel knives can get sharper than most everything else on the “production” market.

Did I mention that these steels are very easy to sharpen, and are more forgiving with forging and forge heat treatment? Important if you’re actually employing real people to hammer out actual high performance (there - I said it) knives in a little knife company. Personally I’m very happy that these companies haven’t yet given way to PROGRESS and I find many of them to still produce a competitive product.

These are fairly old compositions, and yes there are certainly steels/knives out there that will “out perform” them in probably every category.

However, I don’t think there are many around for a similar price that are as fine grained (= extreme sharpness potential), with similar hardness, thinness behind the edge (= best geometry for edge retention), and almost entirely made by hand by craftspeople.

Are some overpriced? Sure. That has nothing to do with Japan, that’s just human nature.

 

[mentalknife]

Translated as “STOP LIKING WHAT I DONT LIKE!!”

Are you okay? Where in that descriptive statement you've quoted did you gather a preference was being expressed? You didn't understand what I said the first time and now you've failed to understand what I've said again... but you've gone from simple misunderstanding to having an imaginary conversation. I'm hardly a skilled communicator but I don't think what I wrote was especially cryptic.

 

[vltor17]

Are you okay? Where in that descriptive statement you've quoted did you gather a preference was being expressed? You didn't understand what I said the first time and now you've failed to understand what I've said again... but you've gone from simple misunderstanding to having an imaginary conversation. I'm hardly a skilled communicator but I don't think what I wrote was especially cryptic.

Meh. I was referring to your overly wordy and completely obtuse diatribe that makes up most of this thread. But I digress, for I am certainly far below your superior intellect. Wait. Are you a bot??!? That would make sense...

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

Meh. I was referring to your overly wordy and completely obtuse diatribe that makes up most of this thread. But I digress, for I am certainly far below your superior intellect. Wait. Are you a bot??!? That would make sense...

OK, I get you're unhappy, but how does this comment connect with tool steels for Chef knives?

 

[garry3]

lol

Those marks have nothing to do with manufacturing a knife and everything to do with selling a knife.

To be fair they aid in food release, but ya, I think there are much better values out there.

 

[garry3]

Also - just to stick up for simple/low alloy Japanese kitchen knife steels for a second…

From my limited understanding, these steels have very high carbon which allows for high hardness (while reducing toughness), and are alloyed primarily with tungsten (or virtually unalloyed) which allows for extremely fine grain structure. This combination, along with the fact that they are designed to cut soft foods on soft cutting boards, allows the blades to be ground very thin. The fine grain structure also allows for an extremely high level of sharpness compared to the vast majority of “super steels”. This is the most important and sought after attribute in Japanese cooking, so it’s not surprising to me that even their “cheap” Hitachi white and blue steel knives can get sharper than most everything else on the “production” market.

Did I mention that these steels are very easy to sharpen, and are more forgiving with forging and forge heat treatment? Important if you’re actually employing real people to hammer out actual high performance (there - I said it) knives in a little knife company. Personally I’m very happy that these companies haven’t yet given way to PROGRESS and I find many of them to still produce a competitive product.

These are fairly old compositions, and yes there are certainly steels/knives out there that will “out perform” them in probably every category.

However, I don’t think there are many around for a similar price that are as fine grained (= extreme sharpness potential), with similar hardness, thinness behind the edge (= best geometry for edge retention), and almost entirely made by hand by craftspeople.

Are some overpriced? Sure. That has nothing to do with Japan, that’s just human nature.

I love a simple iron clad carbon steel kitchen knife. I'm free to thin as I see fit without any worries about fancy cladding. Sharpens on anything and sacrifices nothing in performance.
It's perfect for me and my needs.

 

[vltor17]

OK, I get you're unhappy, but how does this comment connect with tool steels for Chef knives?

You sir, are absolutely correct, I apologize for getting so far off topic.

All the reasons I prefer carbon knives have already been listed by others. I have no problem with stainless, and they are not as maintenance intensive (not that carbon is a pain to take care of). I have a custom chopper made of O1 tool steel (as I understand it, it’s basically souped up 1095, correct me if I am wrong), I think that would make a great kitchen knife steel. Nothing wrong with well heat treated 1095 either, in my opinion.