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Why no bushing pivot on Umnuumzaan?
- Thread starter BubbaGump
- Start date
You're saying it like "adjustable blade tension" is some sort of a feature while the bushing pivot is just better in every possible way, if made properly. You always get the right tension and no locktite is needed. The only reason for having no bushing pivot I can see is that it's easier (and easier means faster and cheaper) to make. You don't need so much attention to detail - the knife is just assembled, no fine tuning of washers etc. is necessary.
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- Feb 24, 2015
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- 574
No, I didn't. I said nothing of the sort. I briefly described the two different pivot assemblies. I gave no details. I said nothing about which one is better.
The OP's question has been addressed and answered by others in this thread.
Thanks for the replies. I ask as I just purchased a Umnuumzaan. After receiving it last week, I had mixed feelings. It was so tight I could barely get the blade to open. After researching here and online, I disassembled, cleaned, lubed, checked for pinched washers, etc. It helped and it is breaking in now. But I am finding there are trade-offs between blade play and centering. I am finding that to keep the blade perfectly centered, it is just too tight. Off center a bit, the action is fine and smooth. But when tightened so the blade is perfectly centered, I just about need a prybar to get it open.
I really like the ergonomics, look, and blade profile. But IMO, the overall design seems thrown together rather than 'engineered' like the traditional 21.
It lacks the precision and engineering of the 21. My $25 Spyderco Byrd models have the same pivot design and can be tightened down to perfectly centered without having to use a prybar to open it. They also don't require loctite to keep the screws from backing out. IMO, this finicky setup is not worthy of a $440 knife. I don't think I could say they dropped the ball but they definitely cut corners. I know this might ruffle some feathers but I think it is definitely the name that is selling this knife at the $440 price point. For what I got and the tolerances and finicky nature of the pivot, it is overpriced, by about $200. I don't see how they can use tolerances and engineering to justify the cost on an adjustable pivot requiring loctite to keep everything from quickly going out of whack.
I really like the ergonomics, look, and blade profile. But IMO, the overall design seems thrown together rather than 'engineered' like the traditional 21.
It lacks the precision and engineering of the 21. My $25 Spyderco Byrd models have the same pivot design and can be tightened down to perfectly centered without having to use a prybar to open it. They also don't require loctite to keep the screws from backing out. IMO, this finicky setup is not worthy of a $440 knife. I don't think I could say they dropped the ball but they definitely cut corners. I know this might ruffle some feathers but I think it is definitely the name that is selling this knife at the $440 price point. For what I got and the tolerances and finicky nature of the pivot, it is overpriced, by about $200. I don't see how they can use tolerances and engineering to justify the cost on an adjustable pivot requiring loctite to keep everything from quickly going out of whack.
I won't dispute others' accounts with their knives, but I personally have had two Zaans in my possession, don't own either now and they did center perfectly when the pivot was at just the right tension. The centering would even stay good enough that it allowed for a little tighter or a little looser tension while still staying centered. I never used any loctite either and they stayed in place. The opening action is completely different and the detent can be stiff resulting in a painful thumb for a week until you get the hang of it and it breaks in some.
I always felt like the Zaan was manufactured to a very high degree, but it's designed to be not a Sebenza. I feel like the tolerances might be a little more critical with a 21 as the bushing and scale and washer thicknesses all have to be just right to get the desired effect. In the end, I only own 21 models as they're what really call to me and make them worth the money to me. Part of that is the engineering and manufacturing that goes into that model whether some think it's unnecessary or not, but I appreciate it and find it pretty cool. I think the BladeHQ videos helped seal the deal for me on trying my first 21. The Zaan and 25 are nice pieces, but worth is up to the owner.
I always felt like the Zaan was manufactured to a very high degree, but it's designed to be not a Sebenza. I feel like the tolerances might be a little more critical with a 21 as the bushing and scale and washer thicknesses all have to be just right to get the desired effect. In the end, I only own 21 models as they're what really call to me and make them worth the money to me. Part of that is the engineering and manufacturing that goes into that model whether some think it's unnecessary or not, but I appreciate it and find it pretty cool. I think the BladeHQ videos helped seal the deal for me on trying my first 21. The Zaan and 25 are nice pieces, but worth is up to the owner.
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- Jun 25, 2015
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On the Umnumzaan and possibly the 25 do you have to tighten each side of the pivot screws to help get centering correctly?
I guess every model will be different but you have to with mine. When I got it, the centering was slightly off to the right. It wouldn't be enough to consider if it was any ordinary knife. It's the type of issue that would be of concern to only perfectionists or those who tinker. But comparing to it to my 21 models, it is not as centered out of the box. When I cleaned and reassembled, I had to tighten it almost all the way to get it perfectly centered. Then it wouldn't open. It was like it was super-glued shut. I had to let up on the pivot a bit, which took it a tad out of center. It then opens fine.
To be fair, this does not effect the function of the knife. Operationally, having it slightly off center does not result in any operational issues and there is no blade play. But compared to the tolerance standards of the 21, it does fall short for me IMO. It lacks the precision and tolerances. I wish it had the bushing pivot. I don't dislike the knife, I just am a bit anal when I purchase something this expensive and had expected the same perfection I find on the 21. In terms of fit and finish, it really doesn't stand out from some of my other less expensive knives in my collection. I can't use the tolerances and engineering to justify the high price as it really isn't anything special in that regards compared to many other Titanium frame locks out there.IMO. First knife I have purchased that has to used loctite to keep screws from backing out and going off center. IMO, that is not a marvel of culinary engineering that CR is supposed to be known for. IMO, it's a $200 titanium framelock knife with an inflated price due to the name.
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Don't confuse tolerancing with engineered design.
Tolerances are the deviation off of nominal that a part can be and still function as designed.
Here is an example. The pivot diameter is supposed to be .3125 diameter on the print, but for manufacturability, it usually has a high and a low dependent on function and fit desired.
.3125 dia +0.000 -0.0005
Of course the numbers given are an example only- They don't really apply to any part that CRK manufactures.
I just use the terms as an often stated opinion is that 'tolerances, fit, engineering, ' etc and the labor that goes with it is part of the justification for the high price. Having the knife, I can't think of any other reason than it has the CR name on it to equate to the $440 price. It is a nice looking knife and blade for sure and quite unique in that area. But it is outdone in the fit and finish dept by some of my other Titanium Frame locks at half the price--and they don't require tinkering to optimize opening vs centering and don't require loctite to keep things from going haywire. IMO, the 21 is superb all around but the Umnuumzaan is kind of a finicky plain Jane framelock knife with a custom price tag. Severely overpriced. Again, IMO.
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That is fine- I understood where you are coming from, but wanted to clarify the difference.
As far as cost goes, that is always going to be a matter of opinion.. I have one and certainly do not find any of the things you have found to be objectionable.
My pivot takes no more time to "adjust" than a 21 does to tighten and I don't have any issues with it loosening up, so I am not sure where the time sink is with fiddling with it?
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That is fine- I understood where you are coming from, but wanted to clarify the difference.
As far as cost goes, that is always going to be a matter of opinion.. I have one and certainly do not find any of the things you have found to be objectionable.
My pivot takes no more time to "adjust" than a 21 does to tighten and I don't have any issues with it loosening up, so I am not sure where the time sink is with fiddling with it?
Spot on. Nor do I find any of the things found to be objectionable with my Umnumzaan, just as you stated with yours. Well said.
That is fine- I understood where you are coming from, but wanted to clarify the difference.
As far as cost goes, that is always going to be a matter of opinion.. I have one and certainly do not find any of the things you have found to be objectionable.
My pivot takes no more time to "adjust" than a 21 does to tighten and I don't have any issues with it loosening up, so I am not sure where the time sink is with fiddling with it?
My opinion is that you shouldn't have to fiddle with a $440 knife to get it aligned and also be able to open without a prybar. It came out of the box slightly off and when I got the blade perfectly centered, it just won't open. The pivot becomes too tight.
I know that's just my opinion and others see it different. But for me, on a $440 knife that is inexcusable, no matter how you look at it. On a $20 Chinese-made knife I would expect that.
Officer's Match
Gold Member
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I still dream of a CRK with the ceramic lock interface of a Umnumzaan/25/Inkosi but the bushing pivot of prior Sebenza's.
Maybe your particular knife has a problem? I would send it in for warranty evaluation before blaming the design.
Based on my searches the past day or two, I am not the only one here who has experienced this same issue and it doesn't really seem to be an uncommon issue. The likely label isn't design flaw but perhaps sub-optimal design, which tends to result in hit-or-miss results with various samples. Or, in other words, why not just stick with the tried and true bushing pivot that works flawlessly and doesn't require loctite and careful attention to pivot screw settings ? Or, sell the pivot system as a lower priced model.
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- Jun 25, 2015
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I'm having the same issue with an Umnumzann that I got in the mail today. Used. But I noticed when I loosened one of the pivots the blade would not center. If I tighten it down, I can't open it. I'll pull it apart tonight and clean and lube to see if that will help. It's a Wilson Combat version from 2012. Very nice looking but need it to be more smooth. In addition to the difficulty opening it isn't super smooth opening. A bit "rough" if you know what I mean.